Chamber and committees

I am just trying to envisage whether anything that will alleviate the pressures that prisons are under and that will keep prisoners and staff safe is going to happen in the future. I would have thought that you would already be planning for some of those things. I think that Inverness is also doubling capacity. That is not everything, but it is something to cling on to. I thought that you might be planning for that.

Is the SPS planning for the possibility that, should the prison population remain broadly the same, you would have scope to do more because you will have more space?

Thank you. That is useful to know.

When we visited HMP Edinburgh, we had a discussion about the window grilles, which Liam Kerr talked about, and drones. I think that there was something about this in your submission—or there is something in the papers to back this up. It was suggested that, through the use of drones, weapons are going to come into prisons—or maybe that is already happening. Can you tell the committee anything about that?

Thank you. My last question is a bit more sensitive, but I feel that I have just got to ask it, and you may answer it however you wish. There has been some suggestion that drugs are brought into prison by prison staff, either for financial benefit or because of what you have been talking about—the level of organised crime in prisons, which is difficult to manage. Is that something that you have heard? Are you able to talk about that? If so, what steps would be taken to deal with it? It would be helpful to get an answer on that.

Good morning. We have heard about all the different ways in which you can try to prevent drugs from coming into prisons. Since the introduction of those measures, such as X-ray body scanners, have you seen a sizeable reduction in drugs coming into prisons?

In our inquiry, we had the opportunity last week to sit in private and listen to the experience of former prisoners. That evidence has changed my perspective a little and it has been very valuable.

Drugs are a huge issue for the management and the officers, and that has made the job more difficult, as well as being difficult for prisoners who do not want to bring in drugs. However, as Gillian Walker said, there is the issue of boredom. One thing that was said, which struck me, was that, for some, it is about escaping the reality of what they have done and about the fact that it can take a long time for them to come to terms with their crimes. I had never really considered all those things.

It strikes me that, at the moment, prisons almost seem to be centres for drug rehabilitation. One comment was that there should perhaps be some dedicated provision in the SPS for those who want to get off drugs. I ask about that in the full knowledge that this is not the time because there is severe overcrowding and we are still waiting on the new prisons being built. However, in an ideal world, has the SPS ever considered that there should be more dedicated units in the SPS for those who want to enter rehabilitation?

I want to ask about the future capacity of the SPS.

As I am sure is the case for the witnesses, I remain very concerned that, in Scotland, prisoners who serve their time for the crimes that they have committed cannot always serve it in a drug-free environment; I am especially concerned about how that affects those who were not on drugs when they went into prison. That is a national concern, which I am sure that the witnesses share.

In the previous evidence session, a question came up about the capacity of the new Barlinnie prison. I understand that the capacity of Barlinnie is 900, although prisoners double up at the moment. I think that the new prison will have 1,300 places or thereabouts, which is an increase of about 400 places.

Will the witnesses clarify that? What will the increased capacity be when the new Barlinnie comes online?

Can you remember a time when drugs were not such a big issue in the Scottish Prison Service?

An important factor is the spin-off of having prisoners on those kinds of drugs, and the impact on their mental health makes it even harder.

I asked the Prison Officers Association about the suggestion that drugs get into prisons through either the coercion of prison staff or their being offered possible financial benefits. You probably heard the POA’s response to that, which was something that I had not thought about. If staff spot something that does not look right, they report it in the interests of self-protection and staying safe. There is not a high prevalence of what I am talking about, but it would be helpful to get your comments on it.

I understand that. That is what I am getting at. However, we have to be hopeful. The Government is not doing nothing. Something is happening. I caveat this heavily by saying that the prison population could again go up above 8,000, so it could use up the space that you have.

I would just like the reassurance, which you might not be able to give, that we are thinking ahead to a point at which we might be able to alleviate some of the pressures in 2027 or 2028 and beyond.