Chamber and committees

I thank the minister for that comprehensive reply. I reflected on what the minister said at stage 2—I read the Official Report and adjusted my amendment to see whether the minister might accept a different formulation—but, surely, it is quite a simple matter. If a request is put before a local authority, the local authority can still say no. It is just a request; it does not deny the local authority any powers that it already has. I really do not understand why ministers have such difficulties with it.

I will acknowledge that—if, after the training course, people are able remember the 57 days of Diwali, Vaisakhi, Chinese new year and so on. It will be an offence to set off fireworks outside those 57 days. I was drawing attention to the oddness in that, which is that anyone could take advantage of the provision and lawfully set off fireworks in their back garden on any of those 57 days. They would not have to be celebrating one of those events. That seems to be odd, because it would be an offence to do so outwith the 57 days. That part of the bill could unravel.

I seek to withdraw amendment 79.

Amendment 79, by agreement, withdrawn.

Section 23—Restriction on days of use of fireworks

Amendment 80 not moved.

Amendment 81 moved—[Pauline McNeill].

I welcome the fact that we have had another opportunity to have an exchange on the subject. I assure members that I was not trying to rehearse the debate that we have already had; rather, I wanted to make the point about legal enforcement. I am content that the minister has said that the costs of running the scheme will not include legal enforcement.

I also acknowledge that the minister has said from the beginning that fees need to be proportionate, although we can take a view on what “proportionate” is. However, I think that we will know if the fee is set too high. In the consultation, it was set at between £20 and £50, at the higher end. During a cost of living crisis, I think that we can agree that we would not want to see the fee being set at that end. I certainly would not.

I have also supported what Russell Findlay has been trying to do from the beginning, which is to ensure that, whatever the fee, increases are kept close to the rate of inflation—although I suppose that that is not a good guide at the moment, given that inflation is at 9.1 per cent. I think, however, that we are all on the same page in that, whatever our view of a licensing scheme, we think that there is no point in creating a scheme that would prevent people from applying because it is too expensive.

On that basis, Presiding Officer, I am content to ask for approval to withdraw amendment 70.

Amendment 70, by agreement, withdrawn.

Amendment 71 not moved.

There was a lot of debate at stage 2 about the 57 days when, under the provisions of the bill, use of fireworks would be permitted with a licence. The 57 days cover festivals including Diwali, Vaisakhi and Chinese new year, as well as bonfire night. Following the discussion that I had with the minister at stage 2, I reflected that one of the things that I do not fully understand about the selection of the 57 days was that we would expect there to be public displays for some of those festivals rather than the days being specific days when people can let off fireworks. For members who are hearing this for the first time, it is important to note that, on Vaisakhi, for example, which is one of the 57 days, anyone will be able to set off fireworks—not just people who celebrate that festival.

The provision seems to be a little bit odd to me, and I fear that it might unravel a bit, so I wanted to have this exchange again at stage 3. Ministers can obviously add more days to the 57 days by statutory instrument, should they feel that additions are needed, for whatever reason.

Although I support the reduction in the number of days on which fireworks can be used, I do not feel that the bill goes far enough; I also feel that the provision is not at all logical. It is unclear to me why the bonfire period is set at two full weeks, given that bonfire night is only one night. We could have covered a shorter period of seven days by using the 4 November date. Fireworks use for the whole two weeks will put increased pressure on the fire service and the police.

Similarly, I do not believe that fireworks celebrations for new year begin as early as boxing day, so I adjusted my stage 2 amendment by excluding new year. However, I still wanted to have an exchange about those two periods, which have been included in the 57 days.

I note that the briefing from the Dogs Trust that members have received asks for a reduction in the number of days when fireworks can be used and sold, and it points out that shortening the windows would significantly reduce the negative impact of fireworks on animal welfare and vulnerable people. We have heard that there are members of society who find fireworks distressing, including people with post-traumatic stress disorder or autism.

To that end, amendment 79 would shorten the supply-of-fireworks period during the bonfire season from 27 October to 10 November to 27 October to 4 November. I say to the minister—before she says it—that I am not really sure why it is 4 November and not 5 November. I concede that point; we should probably allow sale of fireworks on 5 November.

Amendment 80 would shorten the period that is allowed for use of fireworks from 27 October to 12 November to 30 October to 6 November, which is one week around the bonfire season. It makes sense to me to shorten the overall period.

Similarly, amendment 81 would change the period when the use of fireworks was allowed from 26 December to 2 January, which is how the bill is drafted at the moment, to 31 December to 2 January. In my experience, that is when fireworks tend to be used. I believe that that reduction is supported by animal welfare organisations.

It would be helpful if the minister would address—in particular, for members who have not been party to the debate—the questions why those 57 days have been selected, and why such extended periods over the bonfire season and new year have been chosen.

I move amendment 79.

I am sorry to persist. In listening to what the member is saying, I have realised that some evidence that was given to the committee is relevant. Warnings were given by the industry, when it talked about fireworks being stored in an unexpected location and how the impact of a loss of trade, whatever the member thinks of that, could certainly lead to a black market. That is more than one thing—it would be one of the unintended consequences. That leads me to take the view that it is much more important for the Government to give out big safety messages. Does the member subscribe to that view?

Will the member take an intervention?

I will seek permission to withdraw amendment 79, for the reasons that I have given already.

To summarise, I say that this element of the bill will be very confusing. One of the oddities is that anyone having an event that falls within the 57 days, whether it is a birthday or a gender-reveal party, can lawfully set off fireworks, but anyone who has such an event outwith the 57 days cannot.

I also think that some of the festivals that are included in the 57 days tend to be marked by public displays and not by people setting off fireworks in their back gardens. I have been to such events for Vaisakhi and Diwali; those were publicly organised. I would be happy to be corrected on that.

I lodged the amendments for debate at stage 3 because members must be aware when they vote that there is a lot in the bill to confuse the public. I appreciate the minister’s having said that a lot of work has gone into the bill. I do not deny that—there are many stakeholders and a lot of work has gone into the bill—but it is our job to ensure that the general public see the legislation as workable, and that, when we pass the bill, they understand exactly what it does. I have real concerns about that.

I will do so in a minute.

The fireworks industry is quite clear that it has challenged the minister on her assertion that delivery drivers would have a legal obligation to check for a licence, as they do with other age-restricted purchases. The British Fireworks Association says that, although that is true with regard to age-restricted purchases, that duty does not extend to drivers’ checking a licence for fireworks. If that is what the industry is saying, I think that there is a duty on us to examine whether the licensing scheme might have unintended consequences.

I am happy to give way on that point.

Would I accept that? You made quite a number of points there. We are saying that we can still control fireworks without a licensing scheme, because it would be an offence to let off a firework outside of the 57 days that the minister has chosen as the days on which the use of fireworks would be permitted.

I presume that you will acknowledge that the committee had to fast-track the scrutiny of the bill. That turned out to be one of the issues, because we have not had time to examine the international evidence. You are quite correct to say that Ireland has a different scheme, but we did not get a chance to look at the situation in Italy, which is one of the points that Katy Clark made. We just did not have enough time to look at it.

I want to be clear that Scottish Labour supports the Government’s attempts to control fireworks, and we accept that the public wants action. We are questioning whether the licensing scheme might have unintended consequences, and we do not feel that the issue of the black market, which the industry repeatedly asked the Government about, has been properly and adequately addressed. I do not feel that there has been a satisfactory answer to that question, and I think that we are entitled to one.

I have always acknowledged that there is a balance to be struck. Does the minister accept that the time period in the bill means that we are saying that people can let off fireworks for two weeks during the bonfire season? Does the minister see that encouraging that could give rise to some of the problems that we have been talking about, such as pressures on the police and fire service lasting for two weeks, rather than being just on bonfire night? I am concerned by the Government encouraging that wider period of use.