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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 3 January 2026
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Displaying 2128 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Management of Transgender Prisoners

Meeting date: 11 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

It is clear, then, that any transgender woman who has committed an offence will not go to the female estate. That is what you have said.

Criminal Justice Committee

Management of Transgender Prisoners

Meeting date: 11 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

Am I right in saying that the Prison Officers Association did not sign off on the policy?

Criminal Justice Committee

Management of Transgender Prisoners

Meeting date: 11 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

I have one further question for Teresa Medhurst and then one question for the cabinet secretary. Professor Jo Phoenix, of the University of Reading, wrote to the SPS as part of the consultation; I am not questioning why you did not speak to her, because we do not have time. Sharon Dowey has already laid the foundation for this, and I think that, in response, you accepted the nature of women’s offending and that we have dealt with women offenders very well over the years—we are agreed on that.

What Professor Phoenix has said—and she is not the only person to say this—is that the policy is “not evidence based” and that it

“does not adequately provide for the safety of female prisoners”,

who I think you accept are a vulnerable and marginalised group. Do you agree with that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Management of Transgender Prisoners

Meeting date: 11 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

Just finally, cabinet secretary—

Criminal Justice Committee

Management of Transgender Prisoners

Meeting date: 11 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

What has changed in that period? Has the law changed, or something?

Criminal Justice Committee

Management of Transgender Prisoners

Meeting date: 11 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

I am trying to tease out what those exceptional circumstances are. You did not say that to Russell Findlay. Does that mean that there would be no requirement for any transgender woman to go before a multidisciplinary panel if they have committed such an offence, given that, effectively, you have said that there is more or less a blanket ban on any transgender woman who has committed such an offence going to the female estate?

Criminal Justice Committee

Management of Transgender Prisoners

Meeting date: 11 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

The association did not sign off on it. I have read the minute, which says that it did not sign off on the policy.

Criminal Justice Committee

Management of Transgender Prisoners

Meeting date: 11 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

Further to John Swinney’s important question on the SSI, I understand the discretion that prison governors will have. However, I want to make the situation real in my head. If a female prison officer does not wish to search a transgender woman prisoner, what is the route? Can she opt out of that? Does she tell her line manager? I understand that the discretion lies with the governor, but I would like to understand the bit in between.

Criminal Justice Committee

Management of Transgender Prisoners

Meeting date: 11 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

No, it is about something else.

Criminal Justice Committee

Management of Transgender Prisoners

Meeting date: 11 January 2024

Pauline McNeill

The Scottish Prison Service has said that it will no longer give any data on where transgender prisoners are. We can debate whether transgender prisoners can be identified and whether some high-profile cases will get into the press anyway, but given that our job is to scrutinise the policy, it seems a bit unfair that it is okay for such information to be in the Daily Record. I presume that the SPS would still have to answer a freedom of information request as to where transgender prisoners were. As the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs, are you not concerned that the committee cannot do its job if the SPS is no longer willing to give us data on where transgender prisoners are?

Before you answer, cabinet secretary, I will make one point. I fully recognise that a balance has to be struck in relation to the privacy and dignity of transgender people—I am not attacking that at all—but there have been many very difficult and publicly controversial cases, including the one involving Isla Bryson. How can we do our job if we do not know whether those people are in the female estate? Are you content that the press will just be able to report such things but we, as parliamentarians in a democracy, cannot know where a transgender prisoner is in the estate? That seems absolutely crazy to me. Are you comfortable with the SPS’s decision?