Chamber and committees

The Government’s position is that, ultimately, we want all the commercial assets that we have taken ownership of to be back in the private sector, but we will have to make decisions about the point at which that becomes viable. We have not reached the point of decision on Ferguson’s.

Let me break that question down into whether it is normal for decisions on preferred bidders on contracts to be publicly announced, why it was me and whether it is something that I would normally do.

On whether it is normal to announce a preferred bidder, it is certainly not abnormal. Often, at the point at which a preferred bidder is being announced, if you think about it, the successful bidder—the preferred bidder—is being notified and the unsuccessful bidders are being notified. At that point, there is always a possibility that things will leak into the public domain anyway; so, often, a decision is taken to announce a preferred bidder. I could find you examples of other Governments doing exactly the same thing, such as the United Kingdom Government on a train contract and the Welsh Government a couple of years ago on a major roads contract.

As it happens, a few months after this announcement—this addresses your question on whether it is something that I would normally do—I announced, in May 2016 if memory serves me correctly, that CalMac was the preferred bidder for the Clyde and Hebrides ferry services contract. It was nothing to do with Ferguson’s in the broader ferry space; it was about the contract for the operator of the ferry service. I announced the preferred bidder for that, which would suggest to you that it is not completely unknown for preferred bidders to be announced or, indeed, for me to do it.

Finally, on why I, as opposed to a minister, did it, in any Government decision that leads to an announcement, there will be consideration within Government involving special advisers and communications officials asking, “Should this be something that the First Minister does?” That is how the media diary of the First Minister is determined. I will often get suggestions that an announcement is coming up and it is proposed that I do it, and that is what would have happened here.

Yes, but in my mind—I am trying to think—I knew that there were issues that he was expressing concern about. By that point, ministers were aware that there were issues around slippage in the contract. CMAL was reporting regularly to what was called the project steering group.

It was a conversation that I clearly thought that it was appropriate to have. Did I go into that meeting thinking that it was a great crisis meeting? No, nor did I come out of it thinking that. Mr McColl had concerns about cash flow, and he had had concerns about the structure of the milestone payments. He had a concern, which he continued to express, about the amount of money that, in his view—it is not a view that I or CMAL would share—was unfairly caught up in what I think had, by that point, become the surety bond that replaced the builders refund and the partial builders refund guarantee.

Those were the kinds of concerns that he was expressing to me. Not long after that, of course, he made the first claim to CMAL for additional costs over and above the contract. Clearly, at that point, tensions were already appearing in the relationship between FMEL and CMAL, so that was the nature of that discussion.

In the terms that I have told you, there was a reference—a couple of lines in the briefing—as part of telling me the self-evident point that negotiations were not concluded. There was a reference to the fact that the negotiations, which were still under way, included complexities around the level of guarantee. To be clear, though, it did not say, “And this is a matter of really big concern.” It just said that that was one of the things that was still being negotiated.

Absolutely—I have referenced that several times. However, in this context, he is not a disinterested observer.

Mr Hoy, as has been reflected in the exchanges that we have just had, a key driver for the Scottish Government all along has been protecting employment at the shipyard. You have rightly probed me about the decision around nationalisation and, understandably in the circumstances, you have questions and scepticism about whether that was the right decision. However, I repeat that, without that decision, people would have lost their jobs. A key driver of the Scottish Government has been to protect employment, and I make no apology for that.

I was not party to your discussions at the yard earlier this week, but we have made no commitment to additional funding for the vessels since March 2022. The chief executive of what is now Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow wrote to the portfolio committee with an assessment of the cost to complete the vessels and the latest update on delivery timescales. That is still under scrutiny by the Scottish Government, with input from legal shipbuilding technical advisers, and we will come to a view on it in due course.

Beyond those vessels, of course we want to support the shipyard to reach a position in which it is a viable proposition that can successfully bid for and win contracts, and I think that the shipyard is closer to that now than it has been in recent history. That goes beyond the particular issues around the vessels that we are discussing.

Before I answer that question, I want to say something that I think is really important. I know that Kevin Hobbs said this to the committee. There is no issue about the quality of the work that is being done by the workforce in the yard. There are many different organisations and people—including the Scottish Government, which, ultimately, is accountable for public sector contracts—that bear responsibility and have lessons to learn here, but I would exempt the workers at Ferguson’s from that. All along, they have tried to build the ships with the quality, the expertise and the dedication that are required. What has gone wrong is the overall management of the process. As I said, different people have to bear different shares of the responsibility for that. I put on record my thanks to the members of the workforce, because it has been a really difficult time for them, as lots of aspersions have been cast on the quality of their work along the way.

I think that you are right to have a degree of confidence in the current management and the chief executive. They have inherited the situation with the vessels. There have been significant challenges, and there remain challenges around the completion of the vessels, but I believe that the chief executive and his team have a grip of the situation. We can see that reflected in the regular reports that are given to the relevant committee here and the way in which issues are being identified and raised.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the recent reports has made updated assessments on the cost of completing both vessels and has given updates around the delivery dates. The Government is currently scrutinising that information before we reach a decision. Last week, the company gave an update on the issue with the liquefied natural gas sensors. We have asked for all options to resolve that to be considered as quickly as possible.

The current management are doing a very good job. I think that they have a grip of the situation. Does that mean that we will definitely not encounter further challenges between now and the completion of the vessels? I do not think that it would be sensible of me to say that categorically, but I believe that the current team is working in the way that would be expected in order to get the vessels to completion.

I am the First Minister. I am accountable and responsible for everything that happens. Earlier, I said to you that I do not take every decision in the Scottish Government—contrary to some of the things that are said about me by my critics—but I am accountable and responsible for everything that happens in the Scottish Government’s name. Whatever people think about me, and whatever the political or other disagreements, I never shy away from that—nor will I ever shy away from that. That is not the hardest question that you have asked me today, or will ask me in the future, I am sure.

Exactly.

Not at that point, no. You are obviously moving on—maybe you can tell me what you are referring to.