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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 June 2025
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Displaying 2648 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Nicola Sturgeon

The Government looked at different contingency options—that is all there in the documents that you have seen. We got to the point at which, in our view, public ownership became the best option—given that we were in a process in which there was no ideal option—to meet the objectives that the Scottish Government had always been driven by: completing the ferries; protecting, if we could, the future of the shipyard; and protecting employment at the shipyard. That is why public ownership became the option that we pursued.

It is no secret that that was not the preferred option of Jim McColl. In the latter stages, before we got to public ownership, the parent company, Clyde Blowers Capital, put an alternative proposal to the Scottish Government. You can see from all of the documentation that that proposal was rigorously assessed and considered by the Government and that, for a range of state aid, procurement and legal issues, we could not accept the proposal.

Of course Jim McColl has views on the issue, and some of his views have more credence than others, as, I am sure, people will say about mine.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Nicola Sturgeon

I am the First Minister. You can—

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Nicola Sturgeon

Indeed.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Nicola Sturgeon

I assume so. Ultimately, I do not end up at places, making announcements, unless I have agreed to do so. If it was in the way that these things happen, it would have come to me as a proposal that, because of the nature of the announcement, it was appropriate for me to do it, and I would have agreed. Obviously, it is common sense to say that I must have agreed to that, because otherwise I would not have been there, making the announcement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Nicola Sturgeon

It was several years ago, so I will not say that I can tell you the exact sequence of events from memory, but, in the normal course of events—I have no reason to believe that it would have been different here—it is unlikely that I would have instigated it, because I would not necessarily have had knowledge that it was coming up on that date. It would have come to me as a proposal, and such proposals come to me regularly. The Government makes announcements—if not every day, then regularly, several times a week—and in all of those there will be a process of judgment about who is the right person to make the announcement. When the judgment is that it should be me, that will come to me as a proposal, and I am pretty certain that that is what would have happened here.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Nicola Sturgeon

If there are any points beyond those answers that the committee wants to explore, that is obviously why I am here today.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Nicola Sturgeon

Yes—I see no reason why not.

I am not going back on the commitment that I gave earlier but, since you are asking me about that, I want to say something for the record—although everything that I say here is on the record; that is understood. As you know, there is a requirement for the Government to assess anything that it puts in the public domain to make sure that legally privileged or commercially confidential information is being treated appropriately. With that caveat about the process that we need to go through, I see no reason why not.

I have been paraphrasing—although paraphrasing pretty closely—what was in the briefing in terms of the advice that was given to me about the on-going negotiations, and I certainly see no reason why I cannot provide that to the committee.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Nicola Sturgeon

That is what I am saying: I was not involved personally in that decision.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Nicola Sturgeon

From memory, I think that it was a special adviser who was with me. I asked for some work to be done out of that meeting.

That meeting was on 31 May 2017. By that point, there were already concerns about slippage in the contract. There were concerns about what I would describe as the cash flow and financial position of FMEL, so when Jim McColl asked to see me, it was reasonable that I spoke to him, given the importance of the contract, which we are reflecting on now.

You have seen all the material that will tell you what the issues were that were of concern to him and to us at the time, which were around the finances. There had already been discussion about the changing of the milestone payments. The reduction of the final 25 per cent payment to 10 per cent freed up £17 million to help with cash flow. Jim was and has been publicly—although not since then—of the view that he had money unfairly tied up in the surety bond.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 4 November 2022

Nicola Sturgeon

Special advisers are civil servants—they are temporary civil servants—so that was not an issue in that respect. You say that the meeting was a “big deal”—