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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 1760 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Meeting date: 3 September 2024

Fiona Hyslop

The other thing to let the committee know is that we obviously have the new climate change plan, which the committee will consider. As I have told you before, we will have to refresh the decarbonisation plan, which we will do, and it will come shortly after the climate change plan because we have to align it with that.

In terms of where we are now, I cannot get into the detail of carriages yet. If there is anything that I can follow up on about where that sits within the 2022 commitment, I will be happy to do so. It sits in our wider plans for Scottish rail. As I said, we are already taking action. Barrhead is electrified and work on East Kilbride is commencing, which will have an interchange and so on. Obviously, there are challenges elsewhere.

Seventy-five per cent of passenger journeys are currently on electric trains, which is good. However, you were talking about numbers of trains. Again, there is an interplay. Since public ownership, there has been a 7 per cent increase in the number of passenger seats. When it comes to 200 journeys operating to full timetable, we acknowledge that we are not currently doing that.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Meeting date: 3 September 2024

Fiona Hyslop

We either deal with where we are now or we determine that we want to try to cause a fight about the principle of decision making on the issue. It is the case that rail legislation remains reserved. That is why I am referring to the main piece of UK legislation that is coming and our opportunity to have full devolution through it. While UK rail legislation remains reserved, I have the opportunity to ensure that what is a temporary system of public ownership becomes a permanent system of public ownership. I am going to take it; I think that it is important that we take that opportunity.

I could have just said, “Well, that’s it. It’s the summer recess—they can get on with it at some point in the future and we’ll try to get some changes down the line,” but you know that when you have an opportunity for UK legislation—or, indeed, Scottish legislation—to deliver the policy output that you want, you take the opportunity. That is why, while UK rail legislation remains reserved, I want to make sure that the Scottish interest is protected, and the Scottish interest is protected by our recommending that Parliament approve, with legislative consent, the opportunity to make sure that the temporary public ownership of rail becomes permanent.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Meeting date: 3 September 2024

Fiona Hyslop

I will bring Bill Reeve in on that. However, our investment in Network Rail using the current system—remember that CP7 is the first control period that we are going into with public ownership—has gone up substantially. We have a pipeline of activity and works, so the investment is in place.

You are probably trying to get at the displacement of funding from the private companies and how the Government accounts for that. I can give you evidence on what we have done. We are the trailblazers in that area because we have done it for the past two years. I cannot speak for what the new UK Government will do: that would be speculation. From our experience, it should be positive, but I cannot give you firm commitments because I am not responsible for the UK Government’s decisions on the matter.

I ask Bill Reeve whether he can enlighten us about the private train operators’ investment.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Meeting date: 3 September 2024

Fiona Hyslop

There is indeed, and, to be fair, it started under the Conservative Government with the proposal to integrate track and train. Scotland has already done that. We work very well with Network Rail and ScotRail and that work provides efficiencies in investment and planning. I visited the control centre and discussed the multiple storms that we had last year and how we react when there are major weather-related disruptions. The integration of track and train is a positive step forward.

Members will be aware that the previous UK Government seconded Alex Hynes into the Department for Transport to work on the rail reform legislation. I gave evidence on that and I shared my evidence with the committee. That legislation is a step forward for England and Wales but I have concerns about how it might operate in Scotland. The incoming UK Labour Government has picked up the baton on that, and our understanding is that it will take forward a more substantial piece of legislation, which will be the formation of Great British rail. That is the legislation that the committee should take a close interest in. I certainly am, as cabinet secretary, because we do not want to see complete centralisation that would undermine the progress that we have made in integrating track and train.

We want to operate and co-operate with that in a positive way. I communicated some of my concerns to the then chair of Network Rail, Sir Peter Hendy, who is the new UK Minister for Rail, so he should be familiar with them. The issues and concerns that I expressed when I gave evidence to the UK Transport Select Committee just before the close of the UK Parliament still stand.

09:45  

We have yet to see the substance of that legislation. Given the level of co-operation that we have engendered to date, I hope that there will be a practical way forward to ensure that my concerns will be addressed. Obviously, there is more to do. The bill is short and sharp; it is about bringing rail into public ownership at the end of each franchise.

More substantive rail reform legislation is still to come, and we will need to keep a close eye on that when it is published. In advance of that, I hope that the relationships that we have built to date, at both official and ministerial level, will stand us in good stead so that we can try to make sure that our interests in Scotland are protected.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Meeting date: 3 September 2024

Fiona Hyslop

There is much to do. I have met Louise Haigh. I would like to thank again the parliamentary authorities, the committee and the committee clerks for their co-operation on the LCM, because, obviously, we had to do this at pace during the summer, because Parliament was in recess, and I did not want us to be left out of it, which could have happened. I am very appreciative of my officials and of the UK Government officials. I am working with the minister to align things because something happened when our parliamentary terms did not align. That has been good co-operation.

I have not yet met Sir Peter Hendy, the new UK Minister for Rail, although I did meet him when he was in his previous position as chair of Network Rail. I hope and intend to meet him.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Meeting date: 3 September 2024

Fiona Hyslop

It will be an open procurement, to ensure that we have value for money and deliver what we need in terms of passengers, track and train. As you might appreciate, I do not want to comment on any individual company.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Meeting date: 3 September 2024

Fiona Hyslop

Any replacement will need to ensure that it supports a greener fleet. That is one of the clear points that I want to make. However, it will be an open procurement, so I cannot give a figure until the procurement is concluded. I hope that you can appreciate that. A reduction is my commitment, but I cannot say by how much, because the procurement is only just starting.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Meeting date: 3 September 2024

Fiona Hyslop

I undertake to ensure that the point is made to the UK ministers and that they are asked whether they can identify how the costs will be met.

On the more substantive point, which is about how we get efficiency out of Network Rail and deliver value for money for the £4.2 billion that the Scottish Government is contributing over CP7, I have already made arrangements to meet the ORR biannually. I will meet its board to ensure that the ORR ensures that Network Rail delivers. The ORR is the regulator to ensure that we get value for money and delivery. That is the substantive mechanism to ensure that Network Rail delivers. I have, if anything, intensified my discussions with the ORR.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Meeting date: 3 September 2024

Fiona Hyslop

If I may, I would like to address Graham Simpson’s point. I look forward to Graham Simpson agreeing with the Scottish Government—and, I assume, voting with the Scottish Government if we bring this to Parliament—that rail services should be fully devolved, which would enable Scottish Governments of any colour to decide what policy on rail they want. I am looking forward to that support.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Meeting date: 3 September 2024

Fiona Hyslop

That assessment helped us to make sure that we have our finances in position and are capable of dealing with the potential procurement. That exercise has been done. Our job now is to let ScotRail get on with the procurement, which is what I am announcing to Parliament will happen.