Chamber and committees

Chris Wilcock, are you happy to answer that?

There is quite a lot to that, because there is a difference between ministerial direction, shareholder authorisation and a letter of comfort. A letter of comfort is what was provided. In the interests of time, I am happy to give a written explanation of what that was and what the committee is asking for.

Yes. I will not—I cannot—give you that answer.

I will ask Transport Scotland to review that, but, having looked again and read this committee’s report and the REC Committee report, I think that information was shared. Have improvements been made? Yes. However, I think that you wanted to direct your question to Transport Scotland.

The sponsorship is of CMAL, as the organisation, so the issue is the sponsorship of CMAL.

I think that I have already addressed that issue in other answers. Record keeping has improved. It is not that there were no records but that they did not give the level of satisfaction that they could have given. Specific meetings were identified in your report, as they were in the REC Committee report.

It is about ensuring that records—not just of meetings but, critically, of decisions that were taken—have improved. I do not know what guidance the permanent secretary has issued to civil servants, but I understand that communication has taken place, so improvements should happen, and they have happened over many years.

It is difficult because one is reflecting on what happened eight years ago in comparison with what is happening now and on improvements along the way. As I said in an answer to another question, the new permanent secretary has been quite clear as to what the expectation is with regard to the production of those records. Do any officials want to reflect on what the changes are and on how they have been communicated?

I add that I have a strong view on that, because I was the minister who brought in legislation on record management systems for public bodies, which stemmed from a very sad situation that affected children who had been in care and whose records were lost. I felt very strongly that we should always have records because of that. That was in a different circumstance, but it has implications for all public bodies. The issue is that we must have a record management system that enables retrieval. In terms of that legislation and implementation, that applies across all public bodies.

As you know, written authorities can happen in any area that is within ministerial control—not only this one—and they are issued very rarely. One of the questions that I have about the progress of it is whether it is in the current edition of the Scottish public finance manual or whether it will be and when. It has an impact on other areas. That is why I want to check on that. I went through your report identifying what was partially responded to and what was fully responded to. That area was partially responded to, but was it fully responded to? It will certainly be drawn to the attention of the Auditor General.

Going forward, we accept the committee’s recommendation that confirmation of written authorities should be published on the Scottish Government website. You made a specific request about the clerk to this committee automatically getting such confirmation. That information could be found on the website, but, as the Public Audit Committee, you have specific duties and responsibilities, and I just wanted to check that that will happen should there be a written authority at any time in the future.

Again, it is about delineating responsibilities. I understand that the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the cabinet secretary met with the chair and the chief executive of the nationalised Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow to discuss those issues. In relation to any investment decision, one has to identify what the processes are—as you would expect, because that is exactly what your committee has been doing. Proper processes and due diligence have to be in place to ensure that value for money, public interest and all those matters are addressed. That is what the process is.

I cannot comment. All that I can say is that there is a general and, I think, cross-party willingness for Ferguson Marine to be successful. To reflect on the convener’s point about the workforce, the evidence in your report is that they were positive about the chief executive, who had been talking about the need to get into a profitable situation, to secure more work and so on.

I am pleased that that is the agenda that is being discussed but I cannot comment on how and when the decision will be made on that matter.

Obviously, those were the committee’s conclusions, and it is for the committee to come up with its own opinions, views and conclusions. It is self-evident that islands have been let down—I understand that. As the new transport minister, I have spent the summer meeting a number of island communities and their ferry communities.

Resilience in the fleet is really important. There are other issues in relation to ferries that are more to do with operational management issues, which are not the core function of this committee and which the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee has been dealing with, but I say again that resilience in the fleet is really important. That is why having the six ferries delivered before 2026 will make a big difference. Because resilience is what underpins all of this, those replacements are essential.

Clearly we know of the current delays. We will hear more about that, which is why I referred to the chief executive officer’s regular updates to the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee in relation to where they are with progress on 801 and 802, now known as Glen Sannox and Glen Rosa. Another four ferries are being built in Cemre, Turkey, and are progressing well.

Going back to the first question, I acknowledge the point—it is self-evident. A number of ministers have apologised for what has happened, particularly to island communities. That is self-evident, too. I should say that no recommendation came from the committee’s conclusion in that sense, but what I have said will give the committee reassurance that we take this seriously and continue to take it seriously. As the new transport minister, ferries are definitely one of my main focuses.

I keep having to say this, but I was deputy convener of the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee, which spent well over a year taking evidence on ferries and then produced a report. I should make it clear that I was not a member of that committee when the report was finally concluded. Clearly, as minister, I will need to deliver on the cabinet secretary’s response. Perhaps that will give the committee an indication of one of the reasons for my being in this post—to focus on that, if that reassures the committee.

On the point about responsibility, the problems that occurred, particularly in the initial stages of the design process, have been comprehensively set out. As this committee and others have identified, there were relationship issues between the two contracting parties that also led to challenges and difficulties. I refer back to the RECC report, which set those out comprehensively. It made uncomfortable reading for a lot of people, but it really set those issues out, and this committee’s report also reflects what the issues and problem areas were in that respect.

I know from its report that the committee has visited the yard—I, too, have had the opportunity to visit on one occasion—and anybody who has done so will have seen the disconnect between the design and the build. The retrofitting that had to take place was not very helpful.

There were other issues along the way. Sometimes it is easier to reflect on things separately. David Tydeman’s response, which this committee will be interested in with regard to spend, identified what he saw as the difficult areas. Latterly, the pandemic was an element that stopped progress, but that was not fundamental to the initial issues. Later in his remarks, Mr Tydeman talks through what he sees as the key areas; a lot of them were design-build issues that arose right at the beginning, with things not being done properly at that stage. That is well documented.

The issue, then, is that we know that improvements are made. That is where your committee’s recommendations and—perhaps more important—some of the commentary in the report come in, along with, quite clearly, the recommendations from RECC in relation to what happens with milestones and so on. I think that this committee’s purpose is to make sure that the improvements have been made and will be made. I reassure the committee that improvements have been made. Some were made even in advance of this committee’s report, and they have certainly been made after it.

Some of what we want to do, particularly in relation to lessons learned, is to pull all that together and identify things. Some of those changes have been made, for example, with regard to the Scottish public finance manual, and we need to make sure that you can identify where some of those issues are. Some of them are for Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd and some are for Transport Scotland.

That was a wide response but I hope that it gives you some reassurance.