Chamber and committees

I assume that they have, but you asked me about what their view is about clause 50 and I do not want to misrepresent them on that.

We will get the correspondence to you right away. We will check what we know about the Welsh position and if we do not know about it, we will also let you know that.

We agree with you, because we think that, conceptually, it is the same thing, whether the act involves you as an individual or the automated vehicle. However, the UK Government is saying that there is a difference and that, because there is an automated driver, the offence does not apply in the same way. You are right; that is why we agree with you that—

Yes, that is correct, because the problem would be with the vehicle and the manufacturer of the vehicle. The issue with clause 50 is about changes to devolved legislation. It would give the UK Government powers over speeding or other aspects that would be offences.

That is the problem. I suspect that it did not. Therefore, this is retrospective. How do you fit in what is novel legislation in a situation where you are bolting it on to existing traffic provisions? Quite clearly, many of the existing traffic provisions are devolved. All we are trying to do is to respect those devolved issues. You bring up an important point that I have not referenced, which is the need to review the legislation precisely because it is new legislation. It is an issue that we have raised with the UK Government.

The UK Government says that clause 38 is sufficient because it reviews the practice and the experience of automated vehicles, whereas we think that, because this is a framework bill, the secondary regulations will be important areas as well. The UK Government has said that it will engage with Police Scotland and the Crown Office, but it is new territory. Therefore, we think that a more established formal review of the legislation will be needed precisely because we have a new piece of legislation that is working with old pieces of legislation in a brand new area that is novel to us all.

There is the potential for change in the future, and, if we are to have consistency across the UK, there should be a basic assumption that the UK Government will talk to us about those changes or consult us formally. That is all that is being asked for by the Scottish Government. We do not think that that is unreasonable, bearing in mind that we are giving consent to the rest of the bill. The UK Government would probably not want to consider clauses 46 to 51, for example, to be LCM issues, but we do, although, as it happens, we agree with the policy content, so we are not objecting to the them, apart from clause 50, for the reasons that you have set out.

There were quite a lot of questions in there, and I will try to recall a number of them.

The CAVForth project ran from May 2019, with the bus service itself operating from May to August 2023. The partners in the project were Fusion Processing, Stagecoach, Alexander Dennis, Edinburgh Napier University and Bristol Robotics Laboratory, and I think that it was supported through Innovate UK. Transport Scotland has not been directly involved in anything subsequently, but a number of trials are taking place in different parts of the UK, so exchange and monitoring in that respect will be really important.

I am trying to remember your other questions. Jim, do you want to come in on anything that you might have been asked about?

I am just disappointed that there is no appreciation from the UK Government that, in such a challenging, new and novel area, there must be a good understanding of such issues and some preparedness to consult us on clause 50. That addition would show that it understood the difference with regard to devolved competence under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, which is the traffic offences legislation—that is, the rules of the road. Those rules are still devolved matters, not reserved, and that clause opens up an opportunity for them to become reserved.

I do not even know whether that is the UK Government’s intention. It might well be, but we might start to get completely conspiratorialist about the reach of the UK Government’s powers. Perhaps I will just leave it at that.

The bill was announced in the King’s speech, and it is fair to say that it is moving quite rapidly, even though it was anticipated as a result of the collective work of the law commissions. The time period in that respect has been quite tight.

There are issues not just for ourselves but for the Crown Office, Police Scotland and policy officials. In that short period of time, there has been as much engagement at official level as there could be; I have to say, though, that I had not spoken to the minister in charge—although we have had various pieces of correspondence, some of which came in the past week. If that correspondence has not been copied to the committee, I am happy to have that done.

In our engagement, the main points that we have been reinforcing include the fact that clauses 46 to 51 fall within devolved areas—although I say again that we will agree to them all from a legislative consent point of view. The UK Government, though, disputes our view. There are also issues with regard to review and clause 38 not being sufficient, because it reviews only what is happening on the roads rather than whether the legislation is fit for purpose or needs to be reviewed.

That has been the tenor of our engagement. We have been as co-operative as we can be. Nevertheless, as I have been trying to explain, the regulations and secondary legislation will, I suspect, be as important as the substantive framework aspects of the UK bill. That legislation will be needed.

As I have said, the bill is moving fairly rapidly; indeed, it had been in its committee stage in the House of Commons this morning. I suspect that this is a staging post in what will be a continuous dialogue, but perhaps my other colleagues might want to add something.

I have a briefing about where Wales is, but I would rather come back to you on that. I do not want to misrepresent the Welsh position.