Chamber and committees

I thank the cabinet secretary for responding in such detail. I also thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for her support and the variety of her amendments, which are scattered and peppered throughout the list. To different degrees, we have all been hoping to rebalance the chief inspector’s role in our schools, in order to bring back confidence and trust. We want accountability to be in the right place.

You mentioned some of the competing conceptions, cabinet secretary. Although you raised the moratorium on new SPCB-supported public bodies, which I tend to support, I go back to the convener’s earlier comments—

In reference to where we are tonight, does the Education, Children and Young People Committee have the capacity to deal with nearly 400 amendments to an education bill to the point that we are having to sit for a number of evening sessions? We need to look long and hard at the Scottish Parliament’s capacity and the amount of legislation and other work that committees are asked to deal with.

Audit Scotland is held up as being a really good and heavily critical organisation that is well respected for how it reports to the Parliament in its various inquiries. When it came to my intentions, my head was in that space: I was looking for the chief inspector of schools to have kudos, influence and the trust of the public, which have been absent in relation to a number of things in education over the past few years.

That is where we are. However, given the feeling and sentiment, I will not press amendment 140.

Amendment 140, by agreement, withdrawn.

Amendments 75 and 141 not moved.

Regarding expertise, amendments 163 and 164 state that the chief inspector must report to a

“committee of the Scottish Parliament whose remit includes matters relating to education”.

It is this committee—the Education, Children and Young People Committee—that would have the ability to drill down and understand what the inspector was doing.

Every committee is extremely busy and pressed—hence why we are sitting here at 8.38—so you could not say that one committee is more busy than another. I am a member of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee, which is currently undertaking an inquiry into committee effectiveness, and capacity can perhaps be considered as part of that. I hope that that answers your questions.

Amendment 187 represents an attempt to provide clarity in relation to home schooling, residential education and boarding. That is why I lodged it.

I remind the member of what I said. It is equally important for the inspector to be seen to be independent and to reinforce their independence if we want the role to have kudos and if we want to drive reform, to restore confidence in the inspection process and the outcomes of that process, and to enable the public to have trust in our system.

The reason that there are 44 of my amendments in the group is that, time and again, the bill refers to the chief inspector acting on behalf of the Government. Many of the provisions were open to a lot of interpretation.

On how the independence of the inspectorate is to operate in practice, I will read out some excerpts from paragraphs 269 to 272 of the stage 1 report, which was very well drafted.

Professor Graham Donaldson was the head of the inspectorate from 2002 to 2010, when it was a single body, before it became part of Education Scotland. He told the committee that he had

“more operational independence then than the chief inspector of education would have under the terms of the bill”

as it is currently drafted, and that

“Some of the provisions in the bill mean that the chief inspector would be in a position of constantly having to negotiate what he or she does, rather than having operational freedom and being accountable for their decisions”.

Furthermore, he said that, in order

“to provide on-going monitoring of how the system is serving young people, and to provide, where necessary, sometimes difficult messages to Government or to others about where policy is not working in practice or where it needs to be changed”,—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 18 September 2024; c 42, 44, 43.]

there needs to be further independence. He also argued that, if the current inspectorate had felt able to deliver difficult messages, the OECD reviews might not have been needed. He said that amendments were therefore required to “better enshrine” the independence of the chief inspector. That is why all these amendments are in front of the committee this evening.

Despite the assurances that the cabinet secretary gave, I did not feel that the bill created a fully independent inspectorate, which is why I lodged my amendments.

Amendment 140 seeks to make it clear, by removing the caveat

“subject to any contrary provision in this or any other enactment”,

that the chief inspector is not subject to the direction or control of any member of the Scottish Government.

Amendments 144, 155 and 158 all seek to remove the influence of the Scottish ministers on the office of the chief inspector in relation to the authority to perform and carry out its function, so that it can operate fully independently from ministerial interference.

Amendments 163 and 164 seek to change the accountability of the chief inspector by ensuring that he or she will report to a committee of Parliament whose remit includes matters relating to education—which, as it stands now, would be this committee. I seek to reinforce that in various other amendments. Amendments 141 to 143, 153, 154, 146, 148 and 150 would replace references to “Scottish Ministers” with references to “Parliamentary corporation”, and amendments 152, 200 to 205, 198, 199, 196, 197, 191, 192, 193 and 194 would replace references to “Scottish Ministers” with references to “Chief Inspector”, which is required to permit the role to function fully independently and report to Parliament or, as stated in the amendments, the Parliamentary corporation.

Amendments 183, 184 and 185 all seek to remove the requirement to send any reports to the Scottish ministers; instead, amendments 186 and 182 would have the effect that the chief inspector “must”, rather than “may”, report to the Scottish Parliament.

In summary, all those amendments in my name would basically remove references to “Scottish Ministers”.

Amendments 179 and 180 seek to delete the authority of the Scottish ministers to determine the frequency of inspections. Amendment 180 would ensure that, when preparing an inspection plan, the chief inspector and ministers must also involve the parliamentary committee.

Amendment 189 would remove section 46, “Necessary improvements: referral to Scottish Ministers”. That is self-explanatory, given that we want to remove any influence of the Scottish Government on the office of the chief inspector.

I move amendment 140.

Yes, they do, and there has been a significant amount of overlap in the questions. My questions are on committee workload and time management. With my eye on the clock and my old convener hat on, I ask for succinct responses from the witnesses, please.

The last thing that members of the public would want is 175 MSPs, because they wonder what on earth we are doing in here anyway. Can you comment on the current approach to committee subject coverage and how we are mirroring ministerial portfolios? Are there other ways to organise committees? I suspect that we have an awful lot of ministers in this Government, given the size of the thing.

They are not based in Westminster; they are geographically spread across the country.

That is a nice question.

How would you change those from a PR exercise to something much more substantial and connected?

We did something similar with the Promise, which is a policy for care-experienced young people. We held an informal meeting with those young people, who were quite insightful.