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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 12 May 2025
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Displaying 1492 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Martin Whitfield

We are perhaps developing a skill at stage 2, which might benefit the whole of the Scottish Parliament. I welcome the proposal, the understanding that the Scottish Government is open to that discussion and the support that Ross Greer offers.

It is a complex picture. There are groups that will feel that they have been deliberately excluded when, in fact, what has occurred has probably been more to do with drafting and concentrating on other groups. The ability to return to look carefully at that is very important.

To go beyond amendment 226, I am very concerned about the framing of the definition in amendment 120—Ross Greer’s other amendment. I do not have a vote, but if I had, I would not be able to support amendment 120 because, notwithstanding the advice that others in this room have received, it poses a fundamental challenge.

However, in respect of the proposal to reconcile amendments 119 and 226, it is certainly sensible to come together with a recognition that children and young people need to be represented on the committee and in an appropriate way. Given the emerging consensus, I will pause on that point.

12:45  

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Martin Whitfield

Your proposed new paragraph (b)(v) contains the phrase “respond appropriately”. What do you envisage as the test of appropriateness? Is it public opinion, or the opinion of committees or Parliament, or the Scottish Government?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Martin Whitfield

I am grateful—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Martin Whitfield

That makes for a much more simplistic platform—although that does not mean that it is not beneficial—on which to build services for all young people who engage with educational establishments, where we can define the duty of care. As Katy Clark has said, that is the minimum standard, and we can look above that. For people in institutions in particular, the proposal makes the playing field far easier to understand, given the various and differing types of students who engage at different stages in their life and at different stages in their development, which I think is very important, too.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Martin Whitfield

It seems to me that the very strong purpose that sits behind Katy Clark’s amendments also rests in the fact that there are some young people in educational institutions for whom there is already a duty of care, simply because of their age.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Martin Whitfield

I declare an interest with regard to my former employment in education.

Given the interesting contribution from Ross Greer and the openness from the cabinet secretary about discussions, is this not perhaps a situation in which, if none of the amendments were moved, that would facilitate the reaching of a conclusion at stage 3 that might bring with it the urgency that is seen outside this place to rectify the problem and provide a timetable in which all parties together could perhaps seek a solution?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Martin Whitfield

The cabinet secretary mentioned the potential challenge if a trade unionist who is also a teacher is on the board. However, the reality is that a number of teachers are members of trade unions. When it comes to conflicts of interest, the amendment explicitly sets out, as I did at the start, that any interest would be declared and taken into account in the decision making.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Martin Whitfield

Would the member take a short intervention?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Martin Whitfield

My apologies. Paragraphs (c)(ii) and (iii) in amendment 221 are alternatives, rather than provisions that build on each other. There is an “or” after the word “qualifications”.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Martin Whitfield

Your proposal in amendment 120 defines “children and young people” as

“persons under the age of 18.”

In Scots law, the rule is that, if you are under 18, you are a child. Is there not a danger that we would create a contradiction between a child and a young person and that, by doing so, we would potentially exclude either a young person and/or a child by attaching the definition of both “child” and “young person” to being under 18?