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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 May 2025
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Displaying 1114 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Sharon Dowey

Cabinet secretary, in your response to the convener, you talked about building something “from the ground up” in relation to the sexual offences court and, in your reply to Pauline McNeill, you said that the new court will be built “from the ground up”. What will the difference be between the sexual offences court—which we know will not be built from the ground up; it will use the estate that we already have—and the High Court, which will be required to operate in accordance with trauma-informed practice following the passage of the bill?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Sharon Dowey

Will you be able to make all the adjustments? The victims groups that we have heard from have said that they want separate entrances, exits and areas, so that the accused do not come into contact with victims. Will you be able to provide for that in the current estate?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Sharon Dowey

I would like to scrutinise the detail about the pilot, but we do not have that detail.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Sharon Dowey

I am sure that we will have more conversations on that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Sharon Dowey

Will those who will be working in the sexual offences court get more training than what is set out in part 2 of the bill?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Sharon Dowey

You mentioned the budget earlier. One of my concerns, in relation to the financial memorandum, is how much money the provisions will cost and whether we will allocate enough money. The Lord Advocate also raised doubts about financing. She said that the Crown Office struggles for finances presently and that it possibly will do in the future. How is the Scottish Government considering how it will finance the Crown Office more appropriately?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Sharon Dowey

My concerns over the budget are whether we are providing the right resources to achieve our aim, whether it is a real-terms increase and whether it will cover all the training that will be required under the bill.

We heard from somebody that, if we had better-prepared witnesses, we would probably get the verdicts that we were looking for. However, if we get those verdicts, more guilty people will go to prison, which will increase the prison population. We already have issues with the prison population just now. To get people out of prison and on to community payback orders, we need the budget for criminal justice social workers, who are basically saying that they have had a flat-cash settlement for the past four years. I still have concerns about the financial memorandum and whether we are providing the required funding for all the areas of the service that will require it.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Sharon Dowey

I might already know your answer to my question, given your previous comments. At the moment, juries are being directed by the judge on rape myths. There is also the Lord Advocate’s recent reference to that. We have not yet been able to assess the impact that that has had or the outcomes—we do not have any details on that—and we are now proposing huge changes to the judiciary. Again, it will be a long time before we manage to assess the impact and outcomes of all those changes.

Given that there is a lack of clarity about the pilot process—as we have said, it is not really a pilot, because it involves real lives, real cases and real outcomes—would it not be better to remove section 6 of the bill, wait until we have done a full assessment of the outcomes of all the other things that the bill will implement and then bring the pilot process back through clear legislation, rather than bringing it in through secondary legislation?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Sharon Dowey

I do not see it as kicking anything down the line; I see it as ensuring that we have all the evidence that we need to make the right decision so that we do not have bad legislation. We all want what is best for victims and we do not want miscarriages of justice, but the evidence that we have already heard has been contradictory and dependent on who was giving it. We are hearing both sides of the story.

We do not want to put something in place that will affect someone’s life. There will be real results and a real verdict. Someone could be found guilty or not guilty during the pilot. That is different to the research on juries, which was done with mock trials and not in real life. We have looked for evidence about the use of the not proven, guilty or not guilty decisions in real trials, but we do not have that evidence.

We do not want to make a poor decision now, when we do not seem to have the backing of many of the judiciary and when even victims are saying that they do not support juryless trials. We want to ensure that we make the right decision. Why did the Scottish Government suggest that when it is not in the bill? Why would it be brought in through secondary legislation? It feels to me as though there is a rush to include it in the bill, which is a massive one that could have been broken down into smaller chunks.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Sharon Dowey

Will that not be seen as rushing or as trying to avoid scrutiny?