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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 3 July 2025
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Displaying 893 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Planning for skills”

Meeting date: 10 February 2022

Craig Hoy

On those areas of evaluation, paragraph 26 of our briefing paper says that there was no clarity on who should lead the process of alignment—I think that you just referred to that issue. If we do not know who is leading it, how will it get off the ground? As we move to a three-stage process—the three strands of sectoral and regional projects, national initiatives and analytics—is there any clarity that this three-strand model, as it is now referred to, will make much more progress? Your report notes that that approach is already showing signs of stagnation, so is this model not just going to repeat the mistakes of the five-strand or the five-step model?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Scottish Environment Protection Agency”

Meeting date: 10 February 2022

Craig Hoy

That is reassuring. In paragraph 18, the report states:

“SEPA has been open and transparent from the start to ensure that staff, the public and other public-sector organisations”

were aware of what was happening. You have also referred to the fact that no ransom was paid. Can you outline the benefits of SEPA taking that approach? Are you aware of any other examples in the public sector in Scotland where that approach was not taken and, for example, public funds were used to make a ransom payment?

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for skills”

Meeting date: 10 February 2022

Craig Hoy

Before we go into some detailed questions on the structure, role and remit of the ESSB, I want to take you back to your opening remarks, Mr Boyle. I agree with your comment that the skills agenda is vital for the economy, business and individuals’ career progression. I ask you to reflect on your second key message, which is:

“The Scottish Government has not provided the necessary leadership for progress”.

You go on to say that the leadership and oversight functions have failed.

In paragraph 10 of the report, you refer to the letters of guidance. It strikes me that, if they were not fit for purpose, the whole system was set up to fail. Is it fair to say that the failures of leadership and oversight were failures of ministerial leadership and oversight in respect of everything about which we read in your report?

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for skills”

Meeting date: 10 February 2022

Craig Hoy

You touched on confidence in the governance process. I will turn to confidence in the board, because we know that the board became aware that limited progress had been made on skills alignment. However, despite that, requests for information were ignored or information was provided to the board at very short notice. Mr Boyle, do you think that the board is sufficiently respected by the Scottish Government and the skills agencies? If not, should its role be strengthened, or is there a case for looking again and starting afresh?

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for skills”

Meeting date: 10 February 2022

Craig Hoy

So, you welcome the consolidation of those two elements under one minister.

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for skills”

Meeting date: 10 February 2022

Craig Hoy

I have some detailed questions about the ESSB. You state in the report that the board

“lacks the authority to hold the skills agencies to account, limiting its ability to support progress by SDS and the SFC on skills alignment.”

Why has that been the case? To what extent has the lack of authority contributed to the lack of progress?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Scottish Environment Protection Agency”

Meeting date: 10 February 2022

Craig Hoy

It looks as though the ransomware attack was quite carefully timed, coming as it did at midnight on Christmas eve. We are aware from the report that the staff member who was responsible was unable to contact any member of senior management to escalate the issue. Have you explored whether SEPA now has in place contingency plans to ensure that, should such a situation arise again, that channel of communication will be open and available?

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for skills”

Meeting date: 10 February 2022

Craig Hoy

I will ask briefly about the five-stage model and the move to a three-stage or three-strand model.

It strikes me that we have a vehicle that is going in the wrong direction. We have lifted the bonnet and seen that it is overly complex and difficult to maintain and repair and we do not know what component affects what outcome. As I understand it, three pilot projects were undertaken to assess the five-stage model: in early learning and childcare, in financial and professional services and in the Glasgow College region. It seems that the early learning and childcare pilot yielded some positive results. What factors contributed to the success of that pilot and what lessons were learned from it?

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for skills”

Meeting date: 10 February 2022

Craig Hoy

Paragraph 1 of your report mentions the skills gaps and the effects that they will have on Scotland’s labour market and, ultimately, its economy. We see those effects in the form of two costs. There are costs today, as we see in, for example, social care—your recent report identified the crisis in care and the costs that not providing preventative care causes at the other end of the spectrum. You also identify, in relation to digital and the climate emergency, a huge economic opportunity cost in not having the skills to meet the future demand in those sectors.

What confidence do you have that the Scottish Government and its partners are satisfactorily addressing the skills gaps of today and the future?

Public Audit Committee

“Planning for skills”

Meeting date: 10 February 2022

Craig Hoy

I have one final question, on funding. Paragraph 14 states that in October 2019, the Scottish Government

“instructed SDS and the SFC to implement a new model for funding and delivering foundation apprenticeships ... and graduate apprenticeships”.

Those are two fundamental elements of what we are talking about, but your report raises concerns that sustainable funding for those two areas is still uncertain. Why has the Government not been able to provide clarity on where that funding will come from?