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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 5 July 2025
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Displaying 893 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Craig Hoy

Is there still the possibility that you could pull the plug on the two vessels?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Craig Hoy

Good morning, everyone. I want to go back to a question that I would have asked Roy Brannen had he been here. When you were last before us, I asked Mr Brannen whether CMAL had been overruled or whether there was a threat to overrule it, and he said explicitly that that was not the case. However, in a submission from the senior management team at FMEL, they suggest that some degree of overruling took place.

I will quote from that submission at some length, just for context. It states:

“Our chairman met with the cabinet secretary for finance Derek Mackay on the 5th of June 2018 to insist that the Scottish Government intervene to instruct CMAL to take part in an Expert Determination Process”.

The chairman was told explicitly that the Government would not do so. The submission continues:

“Derek Mackay told him that he could not do this because ministers had received a legal letter from the CMAL Board, threatening to resign en masse, if the government interfered with them, as an independent board. Derek Mackay said that this would be politically very damaging for the government, and he could not intervene.”

Mr McColl says that the reason that the Government was not prepared to intervene at that stage was that

“The government had forced CMAL to place the order with Ferguson against their will. We were not aware at the time of the strength of opposition from CMAL to placing the order with Ferguson. Had we known this at the time it would have caused us to seriously question accepting the order.”

Why does Mr McColl believe that CMAL was overruled? Is he misrepresenting, misrecollecting or providing a misleading account of the situation?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Craig Hoy

You are absolutely certain that nobody was overruled and that there was no threat to overrule anyone.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Craig Hoy

I will ask about the culture around the way in which Government works. Obviously, there are formal channels and then there are back channels. For example, when did you last speak to the First Minister?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Craig Hoy

I will start with a question for clarification, just to get it on the record. In your view, which minister took the final decision to proceed with the contract?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Craig Hoy

Which minister signed the contract?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Craig Hoy

If I advise you not to do something in pretty strong terms and you then proceed to do it, I am either being ignored or overruled, am I not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Craig Hoy

Okay. We have clearly touched on who took the decision—although I still have real concerns about that—but we do not understand why. When are we going to get to the why, and what changed materially to allow CMAL to set aside all its very significant concerns—so much so that it wanted to reopen the procurement process? Where is the documentary evidence that the Auditor General requested to say why the final decision was taken? Significant concerns were raised in September 2015, but we do not know what changed between September and October. Surely, with all the research that you must have done for coming before us today, you must have a greater understanding of what changed.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Craig Hoy

Nonetheless, you would accept the principle that when you have discussions with ministers, they can be minuted, but there can also be water cooler moments where discussions are had. Are you certain that everything that needed to be recorded around that time, principally during those critical 24 hours in October, was recorded?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 26 May 2022

Craig Hoy

You are saying that the Auditor General got it wrong.