Chamber and committees

Would you say that your Government is better at getting people on to benefits than it is at getting people off them?

I think that colleagues might want you to do so.

In relation to the work to lift children out of poverty, the Scottish child payment has been welcomed by a number of third sector groups and independent analysts, but I want to talk about those above the poverty line who are in receipt of the payment. You will be aware that, last July, SPICe prepared a paper that contained a graph that showed that more Scottish child payment recipients are above the poverty line than are below it. Do you not think that, if the Scottish child payment was better targeted, you could be more effective in lifting children above the poverty line, rather than measuring its performance against recipients’ average disposable incomes after housing costs?

Elaine Morrison, we touched on this issue earlier, but a lot of SMEs and a lot of sectors, such as life sciences, report that raising capital and funds in Scotland is difficult. In the Scottish public sector—in local government, for example—£65 billion is sitting in pension funds. Some of that ends up being invested in the life sciences industry in Australia, for example, through traditional pension investment portfolios, but there seems to be reluctance among public sector pension funds to put money into early-stage investments in, for example, life sciences here in Scotland, although there have been examples of that. For example, the Strathclyde pension fund used a specialist venture capital fund to invest, resulting in a win-win situation of attracting jobs to Strathclyde and a getting a return on its investment. What more could be done, for public infrastructure but also for those sectors that are seeking access to cash in Scotland, to lean on public sector pensions more, and what discussions have you had with Governments or pension funds to bring that culture about?

There is the concept of bootstrapping, where small business owners borrow money from banks or family members, or remortgage their house, rather than finding more sophisticated ways to raise funds. I get the impression that, post-Covid, banks have been less open to lending them money. Have FSB members picked up on that trend? A large number of small businesses have higher levels of debt than they had pre-Covid. Does that mean that we are in for a tough period with investment in SMEs and small businesses?

There is a taper element of universal credit that leads to a soft touchdown, so that people are incentivised to work and can keep more of their benefits for a period while they are earning. The finance secretary has always said to me that she is very keen to ensure that you do not embed cliff edges in any legislative or policy intervention. However, it strikes me that there is a cliff edge to the Scottish child payment. I have done a back-of-the-envelope calculation, but it seems to me that the taper gives people something like a five-times greater incentive to take on extra hours and work harder than is the case with the Scottish child payment, because people lose that at a certain level of income. Have you looked at any form of taper for the Scottish child payment that would remove the cliff edge that your Government says it is keen not to have as a central element of any public policy?

Finally, in relation to adult disability payment, you will be aware that the Scottish Fiscal Commission has pointed out to us that there is a significant gap between those coming off the benefit in Scotland versus the UK—2 per cent versus 16 per cent. What will your Government do to address that? Surely that is a red flag in relation to the sustainability of a benefit.

Good morning, cabinet secretary. With regard to your Government’s philosophical position on welfare spending, do you see it as a mark of success that the number of people who are in receipt of benefits goes up, or is the mark of success that the number of people in Scotland who are in receipt of benefits goes down over the long term?

You have said that, at the heart of the benefits system, there should be fairness and respect. What does it say to taxpayers about your Government’s approach to showing them fairness and respect that it seems unwilling to pursue £36 million of welfare expenditure that was either mispaid or claimed through fraud?

Would you expect that figure to fall over time, proportionally, as a percentage of the benefits bill?

The First Minister has set lifting children out of poverty as one of the central pillars of his Government. The graph in the SPICe paper from last July says that, after the Scottish child payment had been paid, 25 per cent of children were still below the poverty line and 75 per cent were above the poverty line. A significant number of children were above the poverty line prior to being in receipt of the Scottish child payment. If you are serious about eradicating child poverty, would it not be bolder if you were to address the needs of those who are effectively below the poverty line, rather than the needs of those who fall below the UK median income?