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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 24 October 2025
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Displaying 891 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Tess White

I hear you, but we heard the point earlier that the schools are the ones who hold the coats. After listening to Gina Wilson and Juliet Harris, I have to say that, if I was a teacher or a headteacher, I would go to the council’s legal department and say, “We’ve got a situation where the parent and the child can’t agree and we don’t know what to do. Can we have legal advice?” It is no wonder that COSLA is concerned about all of this. If I was a headteacher, I would be massively concerned about it.

Gavin, what is your take on it, from the parent, teacher and child point of view?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Tess White

You said earlier that you already have enough on your plate and that this will be just one extra burden.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Tess White

COSLA has said that there has been no mapping, gap analysis or data collection, so the question is, how can you legislate if you have not done the prep work?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Tess White

That is really powerful feedback to the committee, particularly bearing in mind that Gavin Yates from Connect said previously that the bill could cause harm if it goes through. You have said that it could cause conflict but Gavin Yates went further. What is your view of that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Tess White

Susan used the word “danger”, Douglas mentioned the word “conflict” and we have previously heard the words “harm” and “weeds” as well as the phrase “holes in the web”. Thank you for that.

I pass back to our convener.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Tess White

On my point about access to justice, we already have a problem with legal aid. We have looked at only three local authorities but, for the whole of Scotland, based on the stats and the estimates, 4,000 pupils could fall into the category. There could be disputes between what a parent wants and what a child wants. We need to think about that.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Tess White

I have two questions and will address my first one to Professor O’Hagan. You have just talked about the intent of the bill and Dr Hill talked about the lack of a scoping exercise. We looked at three local authorities and our data shows that, of 700,000 pupils, 143 pupils withdrew from RO only, nine pupils withdrew from RME and 61 pupils withdrew from both. Why not wait until the Scottish human rights bill and do it all properly? We have four legal experts here who support the view that the bill is a sticking plaster. So, Professor O’Hagan, why not just wait until the Scottish human rights bill?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Tess White

My second question builds on what my colleague Dr Gosal talked about in relation to capacity. The bill is looking to give very young children the ability to make decisions, when the age of capacity is usually 16. My understanding is that a child is legally allowed to be left alone at age 12 and that there is a different age for when a child is allowed to be left overnight. Therefore, the law must be very clear.

Professor O’Hagan talked about access to justice. If there is a conflict, will legal aid need to be provided to children if they disagree with their parents? I understand that the age at which a child has the capacity to access legal aid is 12. My point is that the law must be clear, as the starting point in the bill is that the child has capacity. Professor Sutherland, what is your view? I know that it is very complicated, but the law must be clear.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Tess White

My next question is for Emma Congreve. The feedback that we have been given this morning is that there is, as Angela O’Hagan put it, a

“gap between narrative and practice.”

We hear these words, but it is quite damning that, although something is said, nothing happens and things are kicked down the road. In your view, does the Scottish Government’s positive narrative in the equality and fairer Scotland budget statement and in its budget responses to the committee reflect the reality in relation to policy impact and the changes that it has made to budget processes, data and documentation?

You are smiling, Emma.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Tess White

We hear you loud and clear on those very important points. The mood music can quickly turn sour if there is no delivery. I read in the papers today about carers going on strike. People have had enough if their basic needs are not being met. I also refer to the point that Emma Congreve made about the Pareto principle and the focus on the few important things. We had an example this morning of people being locked up. The committee learned about the huge percentage of women and girls with learning difficulties who are being sexually assaulted. That resonated loud and clear. The Promise, social security and violence against women and girls have also been mentioned. As I said, we hear you loud and clear.

The next evidence session is with the Minister for Equalities and the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, and it is our job to take what you have shared with us this morning, and what we have heard over the past few months, and to present it to the Scottish Government—so, thank you.