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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 July 2025
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Displaying 1648 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

I should probably state an interest, having supported the campaign to save the park. It is an interesting example, because it is about the wider issues. The justice and legal system is a means to achieving something—in this case, access to green space in an area where people have lower life expectancy than people elsewhere in the city. There is a real issue of individual and public health.

Do the courts reflect on and understand those kinds of impacts? Community groups and organisations may be going into such things in relation to access to environmental justice, but the impacts are, in fact, about healthy living, community and those kinds of things.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

Okay. That is understood.

Mark Roberts, I have similar questions for you. How do the barriers impact community groups and people in accessing justice? How is the current non-compliance exacerbating these issues?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

If people have gone through all those processes and have still not got access to justice through the courts, the chilling effect is the main barrier. In your experience, is there a sense that people just ask themselves, “Why bother? We’ve lost at every stage. What’s the likelihood of success, given the procedural focus of court proceedings?”

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

Thank you for being with us this morning, minister. I will now give you the opportunity to say a little bit more about some of the other areas that you know will be progressed or on which you expect to see progress in the forthcoming report.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

I appreciate that repeal might be a blunt instrument, but do you accept—I do not know whether this question is for the minister or for Denise Swanson—that there is an issue with the joint test, particularly when it comes to accessing the right to a healthy environment, although I know that we do not have that right in statute yet? If a community group seeks action but its membership does not include everybody in that community who might be affected, and if those other members of the community are able to pay the costs, regulation 15 means that there is a barrier to that community group even beginning the process of accessing justice, never mind getting an outcome from proceedings.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

I would like to drill into that a little more. As part of the need to look at coherence across the piece, there is a need to consider policy coherence. Can you say at this point whether that was mentioned in the Scottish Government’s submission to DEFRA? Given that the issue is complex and that there are lots of moving parts in lots of different departments, pulling a lever in one place could completely upset something else that is going on. How do we ensure that there is not only overall cohesion but policy coherence across the piece?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

Okay, but, as you said, the legal aid reform piece is crucial, and we are waiting.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

Do the barriers have different impacts on different types of groups and organisations? Obviously, NGOs might have more money behind them than community groups. Does that prevent community groups and local organisations from even considering trying to gain access to environmental justice?

10:15  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

There is also the threat of having to pay the legal fees of the other side if there is a loss, such as in the case that was mentioned. That is why the qualified one-way cost shifting is so important. Where are we in terms of conversations that the ERCS has had with the Scottish Government about that? Has there been any indication that there is recognition of the need for qualified one-way cost shifting?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

Good morning, panel. Thank you very much for joining us.

I want to carry on the line of questioning about the impact on NGOs and individuals who might be seeking redress and access to justice. Ben Christman gave the example of the John Muir Trust, which faced a bill of more than £120,000 after having lost a case. Do people find barriers other than costs to accessing justice, and are they different for NGOs, community groups and individuals? Can you give us a flavour of the types of barriers that different types of people who might be seeking litigation face?