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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 4 November 2025
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Displaying 1752 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks, cabinet secretary. However, in coming to that middle ground, there is a risk that you do not appease anyone and that you do not make anybody happy by—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is helpful. Thank you.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

—I accept that your position is where you are just now.

In a slightly different space—this might have an impact on the numbers and awareness of the right, which other members will speak about—there was concern about whether young people might feel othered by some of the conversations in that regard and in relation to children being able to opt back in if they have been withdrawn. We heard some quite concerning evidence from Leah Rivka about what were, quite frankly, completely inappropriate comments by staff members. Whether it is through guidance or additional training, how do you see us dealing with potential othering or concerns about othering and the inappropriate comments that are being made, whether we like it or not?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Good morning and thank you for joining us. I thank Douglas Hutchison for clearly articulating what I think we have heard from every panel, and probably every individual witness, since we started our scrutiny of the bill, on the distinction between religious observance and religious and moral education. That has come through loud and clear. We have to deal with the bill that is in front of us, so we are talking about both aspects, but we all get the need to separate them, so I will take that as understood.

I am interested in hearing views from both of you on how things are currently working, on levels of awareness of the right to withdraw and on how schools and teachers deal with potentially awkward conversations. I come to Susan Quinn first.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is helpful. From the point of view of young people and their families, in your experience and from speaking to other teachers, have young people been reluctant to approach a member of staff, because they do not want to be stigmatised, othered or marked out as different? Do you see othering and stigmatisation as a potential issue in how the system currently works?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

I put the same question to Douglas Hutchison. From your point of view, how is the current system working? What are some of the challenges or pitfalls?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

It might, however, be an issue if there were one individual, rather than that clear community with a strong identity. From what we heard last week, people are perhaps unwilling even to raise the issue for fear of stigmatisation or othering. However, that is not your experience.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Louise Church, I have the same kind of question for you. In your experience and that of your MSYP colleagues, and from your general discussions, how are arrangements working in schools at the moment? You are closer to having been through school than any of us in the room, so I am keen to get your thoughts and views.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

On the last point that you made, what would a good process that is not intimidating look like? What would that feel like for young people?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Picking up on what you said, I have two connected follow-up questions. You have framed the issue in terms of resourcing, and there is genuine concern about what the proposal means for how schools deal with such things. Would it be helpful if we quantified things, if we had better data and if we had a better understanding of how many parents, young people and families could be affected, so that that could be used as evidence to request further resources?

I ask because, at the moment, we do not collect such data. There is no regularised or standardised mechanism—even in schools, as we understand it, never mind across local authorities or across the country. Is there a role for better data collection?