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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 July 2025
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Displaying 1648 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Peter Dunne, I will come to you.

You talked about the importance of the need to mix international good practice and the human rights standards with the lived experience of trans people and those who are going to be most affected by the legislation. In previous evidence sessions, we have heard about the potential for views about who will be most affected to come into conflict. In your comparative analyses, how have you drawn out any conflicts or competitive notions of impact to come to your view on reform?

12:30  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

I am aware that a couple of my colleagues want to drill down into some of the data questions, and you are covering some of that. In handing back over to the convener, I say that there are different processes here: data collection processes versus the process for obtaining a GRC. I am not sure that we necessarily need to conflate them in this way. I will leave it there for now.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Sorry, can I just come in on that point? You say that the shift to self-ID will remove any gatekeeping. What gatekeeping do you envisage that there should be? Is the only legitimate gatekeeping the current gender recognition panel that assesses the dysphoria diagnosis?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Thank you for that.

I will come back to Professor Sullivan. You talked earlier about medical records and the need to align medical checks, screening and those kinds of things with the right bodies, essentially. We heard from Robin White that the process of recording that information in medical records can already happen, and that the process for getting a gender recognition certificate actually has nothing to do with those records. I am wondering why you think that that is relevant if the bill that we are considering is about the process for getting a GRC, rather than how medical records are recorded?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Thank you very much, Victor. That was helpful.

I want to explore in more detail the connection or otherwise that you see between medical or psychological assessment and, as you have highlighted, the removal of gender dysphoria as a pathology. There has been discussion about whether there should be gatekeeping or medical or psychological assessment in this process. Some witnesses have suggested that some of that should be retained in order to ensure that the mechanism is not open to abuse. Can you comment on that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Thank you, that answers my question. I will put a similar question to the SHRC. We have heard a lot about the requirement or otherwise to remove the gender dysphoria diagnosis and the gender reassignment assessment panel. I do not know which of you wants to answer this question, which is about the element of risk management that Victor Madrigal-Borloz talked about.

If we accept what I understand is your position, which is that we move to self-declaration and remove the panel and the need for a gender dysphoria diagnosis, how do we best manage in the Scottish context the risks that Victor identified around potential abuse and misunderstanding of what rights are being conferred?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Being mindful of an earlier comment about what the reform that we are scrutinising seeks to do and what it does not do, your remarks are well made.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Good morning, and thank you both for being with us this morning and for the evidence that you have provided in your opening statements and in writing.

I have a couple of questions to ask, and I will start with Alice Sullivan. I know that other members are going to come on to talk more about data, so I am going to ask questions about the need or the case for change. Alice, in your view, is there a requirement for this reform in the first place? You talked a lot about the implications for data, so do you see there being a need for change if we can get some of the data stuff right? I appreciate that other members will ask about the data in a moment.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

I want to come back to a couple of things that have been said. I will come to Robin White first.

You have spoken about age and about self-identification and self-declaration. Should there be any gatekeeping, whether that is medical, such as through the gender recognition panel and the assessment of information about dysphoria and other evidence, or should we completely disentangle the process from gatekeeping? How do you see that element of the bill working?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

I will leave it there.