Chamber and committees

Okay.

Obviously, the flexible workforce development fund is of huge concern to colleges and employers. Since you were last here, there has been an awful lot of coverage about it, and we have had people asking about it, too. What is your justification for cutting that area in preference to other areas?

Moving on to higher education, I note that, since you published the budget, we have had the admission figures for international postgraduate students across Scotland, which show a very significant decline in big parts of that market. What impact is that going to have on the budgets of our higher education institutions?

I am not sure that that is how it works, though.

No—what happens is that ministers indicate what the cap is on the number of students who could be admitted. That is a ministerial decision—ministers speak to the Scottish Funding Council about it and a letter is sent. That is the issue of the number of students. As far as I am aware, the SFC is waiting for an instruction from ministers as to whether there will be less money per student or fewer students. Do we know whether ministers have given that instruction to the SFC? The issue is not a matter of negotiation with the universities; it is one for ministers and the SFC, which works for the ministers.

Yes—absolutely. Wherever the evidence was given to Parliament, the issues about financial sustainability are still very relevant. The final example is that Kevin Northcott from Rossie Young People’s Trust said:

“Approximately 50 per cent of our current cohort of young people ... are cross-border placements.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 29 March 2023; c 11.]

Minister, in your wish to reduce the number of cross-border placements, the prevailing trend seems to be to do so to as close to zero as possible. That adds significant questions about the financial sustainability of that incredibly important sector.

I presume that, in the circumstances, our concern is not about the provision of the service for children in Scotland and from Scotland. The policy trajectory of removing—as much as possible—English young people from the system will result in institutions not being able to continue to operate. That should be a significant concern in relation to the policy direction that we are taking. I would appreciate any clarification from the minister on what she is going to do about the sector’s financial sustainability if her policy trajectory is to be adopted.

I am happy to look further at the figures and discussions.

In closing, I turn to the amendments. I have listened to the minister’s case and I assume that she will press her amendment 112, which pre-empts my amendment 214 on the broader direction of travel. I am happy to meet her to discuss my other amendments. In that light, I do not intend to move my amendments.

I had hoped that the amendments would improve the clarity and operation of the system, which tends to be chaotic. The lack of capacity in the English system is part of a function of the chaos that I described at the start of the discussion.

The Promise, as part of what is established in Scotland, is certainly part of the prevailing policy discourse that I am describing.

I move on to finances, which are closely attached to the cross-border issue. In the Finance and Public Administration Committee and this committee, the Parliament has heard evidence that our secure accommodation services are incredibly dependent on cross-border placements to keep the lights on. It is placements from England that allow those services to continue to operate. The Good Shepherd Centre said that Scotland has been turning to England “to ensure sustainability”. St Mary’s Kenmure said:

“Without that income subsidy, no service for Scottish children would exist.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 29 March 2023; c12.]

I thank the minister for her comments on the amendments that are in my name and for setting out her thinking, which I hope to probe a bit further.

My interest was first prompted by the evidence that the committee took when I was a member of it, at the start of last year. There was, in some regards, a rather unfortunate distinction in relation to the level of responsibility that we might take as a Parliament to ensure the best outcomes for some of the most vulnerable young people not just in Scotland but across these islands.

The reality of our secure accommodation system is that many young people from England, in particular, who are in such facilities are at significant risk of harm or of loss of life—either at other people’s or their own hands. Affording those young people opportunities for secure accommodation is an important part of the system that protects life across the UK.

In those respects, as a matter of principle, where those young people were born does not matter to me. I understand that legal restrictions and responsibilities have to be taken on board in the operation of secure care. Some of my amendments address and support that. To be frank, although some of those children live a little further away, the circumstances that they face are equally horrendous.

I start from there—from why we have cross-border placements. It is clear from the evidence that the Parliament has received that the scale is principally a function—a dysfunction—of the English system. England lacks capacity.

The Parliament has heard considerable evidence on that. Katy Nisbet from Clan Childlaw told the Parliament that there is a

“huge underprovision of secure accommodation in England.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 22 March 2023; c 44.]

Kevin Northcott of Rossie Young People’s Trust spoke of

“the demand that exists in the English system.”

The Good Shepherd Centre’s Alison Gough said:

“there has been a dramatic and sustained rise in the number and frequency of referrals from England.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 29 March 2023; c 12, 11.]

Back in May last year, the minister told the committee that England simply does not have enough capacity. The issue is recognised in England. The Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills reported that there were 50 children waiting for every secure bed in England. The issue is really significant. A clear problem of capacity in England has to be addressed.

As a result, I see a significant problem, particularly given the evidence from Megan Farr of the office of the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland, who expressed the idea that,

“By making it harder for local authorities to place children in Scotland, our hope would be that that would somewhat force the issue of providing more appropriate places in England.”

Minister, I know that that quotation is not from you or another minister but from the children’s commissioner’s office, but the idea is fanciful that, by making it more difficult to protect the lives of young children who come into Scotland, we will force the Tory Government in England to fix the secure accommodation system in England. I do not see any evidence that that would be the case. Megan Farr went on to say:

“it is not something that Scotland can fix for England’s sake.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 22 March 2023; c 46.]

At the heart of the issue is the fact that those young people are at significant risk today. Our facilities and workers in Scotland are protecting their lives, and we should make that happen. I want to explore that and hear more justification from the minister for her statement that such placements should only ever occur in exceptional circumstances. I am happy to hear that now.

Certainly—I have just given you two quotes from different areas. Both the Finance and Public Administration Committee and this committee have taken such evidence—whether it was in relation to the financial memorandum or this committee’s side of the question. Those things have been raised and I am happy to provide the member with—

I appreciate those points. Working together as two Governments, having a proper collaboration and trying to solve the situation in the round is certainly desirable. If I can, I will come back a little to the rationale for that.

First, I take issue with the assumption about proximity. Part of the prevailing policy discourse is that children should always be placed as close as possible to their local authority area and their local community. We hear that underlying assumption in the discourse from the minister and the children’s commissioner. However, the committee heard evidence in March last year from Claire Lunday of St Mary’s Kenmure secure care centre, for instance, about the need for and desirability of a lack of proximity for

“A number of young people ... from London boroughs ... who have been involved in child criminal exploitation”.—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 29 March 2023; c 25.]

In other words, greater distance would help young people.