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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 13 May 2025
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Displaying 1491 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Michael Marra

To be fair, I am looking for objective rather than subjective outcomes. We all agree that we have seen really impressive people come before the committee as commissioners. They are incredibly passionate about the people whom they represent, and we share their sympathies. My questions are about the model.

I will take my questions into a slightly different space, if that is okay. People are talking about accountability and, in lots of the evidence, about holding politicians to account for what they say. However, I think that the suggestion is that committees of politicians should hold the commissioners to account. In what way does the accountability model work, and is it reasonable to assume that we will get better outcomes if commissioners hold politicians to account and politicians hold commissioners to account?

10:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Michael Marra

You cite the example of the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill, for which an amended financial memorandum was published after stage 2. The committee was very critical of that financial memorandum, as you may be aware. For the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill, we were provided with an update to the financial memorandum prior to stage 2.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Michael Marra

That would be useful.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Michael Marra

You are advocating the commissioner model, which is what the committee is exploring, so I am keen to understand why you think that there has been cause and effect—the connection between using that model more and outcomes, which you have said that you are completely focused on.

Adam Stachura, do you have any other evidence?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Michael Marra

What areas?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Michael Marra

Cabinet secretary, you are a member of the Cabinet that is responsible for Scotland’s public finances, so it is important that we can ask you about how, as a body, that Cabinet controls the public purse. It is clear that there appears to be no control of public spending across a range of legislation.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Michael Marra

That was the Scottish Police Federation.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Michael Marra

We have talked about outcomes and the two groups that are principally advocating for new commissioners. There was a bit of focus on the case that has been made, but I have still not heard examples of outcomes having been improved in Scotland as a result of having a commissioner.

Rob Holland, your survey showed that 94 per cent of respondents said that they were supportive of a commissioner—I think that that was question 4 of your survey. I feel that the methodology supported the concept, because you could have asked people, “In the absence of evidence of improved outcomes, do you support a commissioner?” Did you present evidence of improved outcomes to people who filled in the survey, or did you tell them that there was none?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Michael Marra

It is not really a matter of doing it differently; it is to do it in line with what your colleague did in providing an updated financial memorandum prior to stage 1, which is what happened with the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. You are citing the standing orders, which seem to be available to your colleagues. Why not follow them in this circumstance?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Michael Marra

Okay—we can have a look at that.

I have mentioned three of the bills and financial memorandums that we have had before us. The other one to note is the Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill.

I am keen to hear your reflections on Government practice in regard to financial memorandums, and particularly that to the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill that is before us. Police Scotland said that the costs were “vastly underestimated” and the Scottish Police Federation said that the estimates were “woefully inadequate”. It is right for us to think about the process by which you arrived at the numbers. Can you describe that process to the committee? What gateways are in place for costing a bill that comes to you, as cabinet secretary? What other colleagues sign off on that process in agreeing with the costs? How does that go through the Government?