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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 August 2025
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Displaying 1714 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Michael Marra

I will start in the area that Liz Smith touched on, and I thank you for your evidence on that so far.

In your evidence, you stated that you did not see any other options in front of you in regard to the mitigation of the two-child cap. At your previous committee appearance, I asked you to write to the committee to set out why you chose that option in preference to the others in the options appraisal that you carried out, and you said, “Okay” to that.

In our report, we again set that out and said:

“The Committee welcomes the Cabinet Secretary’s commitment to provide a copy of the options appraisal setting out why it chose this specific model for mitigating the two-child cap and looks forward to considering this in due course.”

In your response, you said:

“Ministers have considered a range of possible approaches to mitigation, balancing cost, the pace at which payment arrangements can be put in place and ... the need to get the systems up and running safely.”

Was there a range of options or not?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Michael Marra

I understand that. I suppose that I am interested in the policy-making process and the relationship with the civil service around that. The Scottish Fiscal Commission has repeatedly set out its concerns—it did so in its long-term forecast—about the size of the social security bill, which is a considerable worry to it. Has the civil service at no point come back to you about the instruction that you have given it or expressed any concerns about the fiscal risks that are involved? Has there been no discussion of a ministerial direction?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Michael Marra

What approach should the UK Cabinet have taken?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Michael Marra

It was a quote from the Official Report, cabinet secretary.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Michael Marra

That relates to the recommendation that you took to the civil service. It gave you the costings. However, you told us in your response that you considered a range of possible approaches. Did the civil service provide you with information about other approaches or was it just one approach?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Michael Marra

That is good to hear.

I will close on public sector reform. We have heard about the money that is to be saved and about Minister McKee’s work in that area and the summit that he held this week. You have already set out some useful figures showing projected additional savings of £380 million in the years to come, which is good to hear. Ivan McKee said that the framework for some of that will be delivered near the start of the 2025-26 financial year.

What is the difference between what we are seeing now and the resource spending review that the Government stopped? What do you think is the difference between those two programmes? One was published three years ago. You previously told us, and have said again today, that that was a bit of a blunt tool, so what do you think is the difference between the programme that was put in front of Parliament three years ago and the process that is now being undertaken?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Michael Marra

The committee has been quite clear about our desire to see a directed plan that follows a strategy. The committee is unanimous on that, as is shown in what we have published.

The resource spending review asked for

“investment in systems and processes, with targeted workforce growth in priority areas”,

and said that

“We do not propose a uniform approach due to varying trends in demand for different services.”

The resource spending review acknowledged that there was no global figure for reduction, but that there were specific plans for different areas, which is the same as what is being described now. So, my core question is this: have we just wasted the three years between the publication of that document and where we are now?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Michael Marra

You are the director of public spending for the Scottish Government, Mr McCallum, so you will have a direct insight into this. Is bringing the policy solution and then asking the civil service to cost it up and do it a typical way of developing a policy? Is a more typical way not to go to the civil service and have a discussion about the minister’s intent and what they are seeking to achieve, and for the civil service to then come back with options and say, “These are what we think are the best ways to do it, minister,” so that you can make a decision on that, because you are the Government?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Michael Marra

Yes, absolutely. One of my concerns is pace and how long it is taking. Children are living in poverty right now, and we want that action to take place as soon as possible. In your response to our report, you said that you considered different options around pace, but you are not setting out any other options to me. You have said one thing here, which is the evidence that you have just given. Were the civil servants involved in the discussions?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Michael Marra

Okay. I will move on.

We have covered some national insurance issues. There are shared concerns about the impact on the public sector and the private sector. Across the board, it is a real challenge. What would your alternative be for raising the £5.2 billion of extra funding that has come into the budget for Scotland? How should that money have been raised?