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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 May 2025
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Displaying 1489 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Michael Marra

The area that I am interested in has been touched on already, but I am keen to dig a little more, as it involves the nub of my concerns, which are to do with the range of work that is undertaken by social work and children’s services and whether the national care service will focus predominantly or too much on the care issue.

Fiona Duncan, as you mentioned that issue, can you illustrate the breadth of areas that your social work colleagues deal with, beyond and including the issues of care?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Michael Marra

I will reflect on some of the frustrations that you have expressed—as a Dundonian, I have certainly observed them—about the fact that the city council puts money into the IJB and then takes it out to plug its own financial black hole, which means that you cannot plan for services and there are problems with the money. You have expressed that challenge well.

On the model that you have postulated, would we not be looking at just replicating some of that, perhaps with the involvement of a third agency, if you were looking at bringing in children’s services and there was to be a whole other budget for that? Is it your suggestion that we pull all of that together? Is the logical conclusion of your model not to also bring education into the picture?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Michael Marra

We are being asked to agree to a major change by passing this framework bill. Essentially, we would be approving things in principle, with the model to follow afterwards. I recognise that it is challenging to imagine what that process might look like.

We have just touched on the Promise and the Feeley review. What evidence have the witnesses seen marshalled to support the change that we as a Parliament are being asked to approve? What is the evidence base for moving children’s services? I will start with Ross McGuffie.

11:00  

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Michael Marra

Jude, do your members know what is happening? Do they know that pensions are not included in TUPE regulations arrangements—there is no clarity on that—and that they could be moving employer to a completely new body with no indication of what might happen?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Michael Marra

Thank you.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Michael Marra

Allow me to interrupt—I am sorry; I do not mean to be rude, but it is challenging to intervene when someone is online.

The list of proposed activities includes dealing with issues of fostering, whole-family support, kinship care relating to children, early intervention work through partnering with education services and so on. Those are not things that you currently do, are they?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Michael Marra

I suppose that what I am getting at is that your members will be under pressure to close cases. Indeed, they are regularly under that pressure, because managers keep saying that there are too many cases and that they need to reduce the case load. Is there a risk that what we are talking about will accelerate that process? After all, Martin Crewe has described it as the Cinderella service.

According to the figures that we can see, the set-up cost for the national care service is currently looking like it will be £1.3 billion. That money will not be spent on your services; it is just for set-up costs. Yesterday, the STUC and trade unions called for the whole programme to be stopped. That is the situation that your members, Jude, and your service deliverers, Martin, would be walking into. It just feels like a big risk to what you are doing right now.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Michael Marra

It just strikes me that I cannot see the Government doing the same thing to doctors. It would not say to an entire profession, “We’re going to change your employment rights, put in place a bill that allows us to do that and then pass it.” However, the Government is prepared to do it to social workers.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Michael Marra

I am interested in the area that both Jude Currie and Martin Crewe have just talked about. Should the organising principle of a national care service not be the provision of care? However, the sort of thing that you have described to the committee this morning is about keeping young people away from care. Is there not a culture risk in trying to integrate what you do with an adult national care service?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 November 2022

Michael Marra

That was very useful. Is it the case that, because of reducing resource and a lack of partners to refer on to, prevention has become much more difficult and that the work of your members is being taken up with permanence issues, referrals to care and child protection issues?