Chamber and committees

Thank you—I ask you to please look at that in your reform, because the issue has been brought up in evidence for the past two weeks. People have such a low amount of money, but they do not get advice and assistance. Please look at that, minister.

Over the past few weeks, the committee has taken evidence on how legal aid is administered for survivors of domestic abuse. Two weeks ago, Andy Sirel of JustRight Scotland highlighted that a survivor of domestic abuse can sometimes go to between 30 and 50 law firms before they can get a solicitor. As if those figures are not horrendous enough, we also heard about a woman in a divorce case who had been attacked by her husband and had to contact 116 firms.

Last week, Dr Marsha Scott of Scottish Women’s Aid said:

“we are no closer to ... reform now than we were”

in 2017. She also said that the current model

“is not fit for purpose”

as

“It chops ... lives ... into little bits.—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 20 May 2025; c 5.]

The lives of those women, and in many cases of their children, are at stake. The situation is so bad that even the United Nations Human Rights Committee pointed out that it was

“concerned about the depletion of legal aid lawyers”

across the United Kingdom, but in particular in Scotland.

Minister, as you will probably be very much aware, it is a big first step for survivors even to contact a solicitor; we know that many survivors do not do that. We are talking about someone having to call 116 firms. I ask you to imagine a survivor picking up the phone and saying, “I need help,” once, twice, three times, and then 116 times. That is not good enough. You, as the Minister for Victims and Community Safety, and the Scottish Government cannot keep dragging your feet on this. It is so important that those women are treated with dignity and respect.

I really hope that the reform that you have mentioned takes all that into consideration, because it is happening on the ground. As you know, through my Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill, I have had the opportunity to speak to many survivors, so I know that it is a big issue.

At times, the partner holds all the financial records and controls the finances. Women especially may not hold all the information and may have to be means tested.

I have one more question. You said earlier that the model of legal aid for women and children in Scotland is not fit for purpose and is not demand led. Fiona McPhail spoke about the system in England, which is not means tested. Do you think that we should have such a system for domestic abuse cases here?

Does anybody want to add anything?

Good morning. Thank you for the information that you have provided so far.

We recently became aware of the case of a woman who was turned down not by one, not by two, but, shockingly, by 116 law firms that would not take up her divorce case. As you know, it takes a lot for a survivor, especially a woman, to come forward, let alone to seek legal aid. This woman was assaulted by her husband and had to find legal aid, and then was turned down, which added extra layers of stress.

However, that is not the only such case. Last week, we heard evidence from JustRight Scotland that people sometimes contact 30 to 50 law firms before their case gets picked up. Scottish Women’s Aid has said that survivors of abuse sometimes face the challenge that local solicitors are representing the abuser, which leaves them having to find a solicitor in another part of the country, which makes things even more complicated.

I have spoken to many survivors of domestic abuse as part of my Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill, and all I can say is that many of those women are extremely vulnerable. What should be done to make their lives a bit easier?

Dr Scott, you have already said that it is not only access and resources that are the problem—the model is also not fit—so it would be good to hear what more can be done. I know that you have already covered some of that.

I have one more question for Dr Zazai about the cultural side of things, because that issue was raised last week.

You spoke about language barriers. Many women—because it is usually women—are left in a no-man’s-land in cases of domestic abuse that involve housing. They do not have access to information and they cannot communicate. You said that sometimes it is hard to even read and interpret a solicitor’s letter. Do you agree that there are not only language barriers but cultural ones?

In the evidence that we took last week on cultural barriers, we heard that sometimes—in fact most of the time—solicitors do not have the time or the resources to understand people’s background or the cultural aspects of their situation. I know that when you speak with those from different backgrounds you are sometimes dealing with a whole family—sometimes a whole community—and not only with the person who has been domestically abused. What would you say about the fact that legal aid solicitors do not have training in culture or the resources to access that?

My next question is about bureaucracy and access. Dr Marsha Scott, who was on the previous panel, said that even the United Nations has raised the issue of the depletion of legal aid lawyers in Scotland. How can we talk about a human rights approach to administering legal aid when we have many layers of bureaucracy, as you have just mentioned; a lack of solicitors who are willing to take on cases at legal aid rates; women who are not eligible to access legal aid because they do not know their household incomes; and difficulties with understanding cultural and language differences, which we heard about from the previous panel?

Good morning. I thank the witnesses for the information that they have provided so far. Last week, I brought up the issue of abusive partners controlling all the household finances. In many cases, the abused person, which is usually the woman, does not know the household annual income. Therefore, the victim risks their application for legal aid being turned down either because the household income is too high or because there is no clear indication of what the household income is.

Survivors of domestic abuse come from all walks of life and all socioeconomic backgrounds. Witnesses at last week’s evidence session called for the removal of the criteria for accessing legal aid in certain cases, such as those brought by parties seeking civil protection orders and by survivors of domestic abuse. What changes need to happen to ensure that a human rights-based approach is taken to resolving legal disputes?

Thank you. That was some really good detail, Professor Boyle. Dr Christman, would you like to add anything?

Good morning. I thank the witnesses for the information that they have provided so far. Last week, I brought up the issue of abusive partners controlling all the household finances. In many cases, the abused person, which is usually the woman, does not know the household annual income. Therefore, the victim risks their application for legal aid being turned down either because the household income is too high or because there is no clear indication of what the household income is.

Survivors of domestic abuse come from all walks of life and all socioeconomic backgrounds. Witnesses at last week’s evidence session called for the removal of the criteria for accessing legal aid in certain cases, such as those brought by parties seeking civil protection orders and by survivors of domestic abuse. What changes need to happen to ensure that a human rights-based approach is taken to resolving legal disputes?