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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 September 2025
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Displaying 774 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

No—that is fine, thanks.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

That was very helpful. I will certainly be asking the Scottish Government about this next week.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

I want to talk about not only toilets but facilities in general. We are not talking only about need, but about religion. My parents came to Scotland and I was born here, in Glasgow, and I think that equality should be there for everybody and needs should be addressed for everybody—I absolutely agree with that. However, we are talking about breaking a religion here. If I was in a changing room with my mother or Muslim auntie and she had to change in front of a biological male, that would break our religion. There are many consequences for that in the Muslim faith, in Indian faith and in other faiths that I could mention. How can we have balance in that regard? That is what this question involves.

I acknowledge what you are saying about need but, right now, people out there are really confused. It is not just about women and girls; it is about faith and religion. There is so much going on out there and nobody knows where the guidance is or who is guiding who. People from all backgrounds—not just religious backgrounds—are confused.

How do you see those issues? It is not just about toilets. I know for a fact that a Muslim woman cannot go into a changing room and change in the presence of a trans woman, because that person is a biological male. That view should not offend anybody. It is our religion, and we cannot change that. I am not going to break my religion for somebody else—I will be honest about that. I know how to keep myself safe and keep to my faith.

How do you balance those issues? I know that it is not just women from the older generation who would not go into that room; it is people from the younger generation, too.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Good morning. I thank the witnesses for the information that they have supplied so far. Last week, the committee received a submission from Sandie Peggie’s lawyers. As you might know, Sandie Peggie is a nurse who was suspended from NHS Fife for refusing to use a changing room with a biologically male colleague. In the submission, Sandie Peggie’s lawyers wrote:

“Unfortunately, the PSED has zero prospects of delivering on its aims to improve outcomes for people with protected characteristics if listed authorities adopt the same cavalier approach to PSED compliance as FHB has.”

The submission clearly shows that the rights of trans-identifying males were put above the rights of women. No woman should ever be treated this way.

What are your local authorities doing to ensure that women and girls are not treated the same way as Sandie Peggie was treated? For example, are the rights of women and girls respected in council-run facilities such as single-sex toilets and changing rooms? Can you guarantee that you are complying with the Equality Act 2010? Do you believe that self-identification is trumping the Equality Act 2010 and is above women and girls’ rights?

I will go to Nareen Turnbull first.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

It is one of the big issues that I am dealing with right now, in the West of Scotland region. Parents are complaining to me and saying that, especially in relation to the single-sex toilets in every school, there seem to be different sets of guidance and policies, even though the policies are set from Holyrood. The difficulty comes from how the schools interpret the policies and guidance and pass them on. Have you heard of that?

10:45  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you. Nicky, there is another area that you may not know about or that you may have read about in the media, which is how we can ensure that women are not strip-searched by men. I think that that has come up in England. Does Police Scotland have policies on that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you. That is all from me, convener.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Will that guidance be out this year?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you, Andrew. It is great to hear that you are providing for everybody and that you are ahead of the curve.

You said that you have not come across any issues. I want to ask whether anyone has anything to say on this: we have found that a lot of girls do not go to shared toilets because they feel scared, and some do not go to the toilet all day until they go home. Will you share whether that or anything like that has come up in any of your schools?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Good afternoon. I want to come back to the case of Sandie Peggie, which you may have heard me speak about with the earlier witnesses. At a time when our NHS is struggling to recruit and retain staff, what happened in that case is the last thing that we need. Women need to feel safe at work, so why would they want to take a job where they are forced to strip naked in front of men? What are your organisations doing to ensure that we do not have another Sandie Peggie situation? Do you believe that you are complying with the Equality Act 2010? Do you believe that gender self-identification is trumping that act in terms of women’s rights?