Chamber and committees

No—that is fine, thanks.

That was very helpful. I will certainly be asking the Scottish Government about this next week.

I want to talk about not only toilets but facilities in general. We are not talking only about need, but about religion. My parents came to Scotland and I was born here, in Glasgow, and I think that equality should be there for everybody and needs should be addressed for everybody—I absolutely agree with that. However, we are talking about breaking a religion here. If I was in a changing room with my mother or Muslim auntie and she had to change in front of a biological male, that would break our religion. There are many consequences for that in the Muslim faith, in Indian faith and in other faiths that I could mention. How can we have balance in that regard? That is what this question involves.

I acknowledge what you are saying about need but, right now, people out there are really confused. It is not just about women and girls; it is about faith and religion. There is so much going on out there and nobody knows where the guidance is or who is guiding who. People from all backgrounds—not just religious backgrounds—are confused.

How do you see those issues? It is not just about toilets. I know for a fact that a Muslim woman cannot go into a changing room and change in the presence of a trans woman, because that person is a biological male. That view should not offend anybody. It is our religion, and we cannot change that. I am not going to break my religion for somebody else—I will be honest about that. I know how to keep myself safe and keep to my faith.

How do you balance those issues? I know that it is not just women from the older generation who would not go into that room; it is people from the younger generation, too.

The inclusion of single-sex spaces and services is absolutely vital for women, including women from BAME and religious backgrounds. During the passage of the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, I highlighted that many religious women do not feel comfortable being touched by biologically male doctors or nurses who are performing examinations such as smear tests or breast examinations.

As our witnesses will know, the national health service employs many women from BAME backgrounds. Now, they will also be made to feel uncomfortable—especially given what happened to Sandie Peggie and how she has been treated—changing in front of a biological male. Doing that would mean that they would break their religion, which, by the way, is also a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. Would that mean that all those women would have to go through a tribunal?

I need to ask about this, because I do not understand it. On the one hand, the public are given separate rooms for prayers but, on the other hand, single-sex facilities are taken away. That defeats the purpose of promoting equality. You will know that women of faith need to use those facilities before their prayers, without the presence of a biological male. Should it be mandatory for all public bodies to offer single-sex spaces and services?

Enough on what I have just asked about: enforcement activities.

Who do you feel is not doing their job?

Thank you, Rohini. You are absolutely right to say that it is up to the public sector. Again, we are here talking about the public sector duty, and it is important that it is clear so that people can understand it. The issues of dignity and respect are relevant not only to Muslim women; they are relevant to all women and girls.

I have one more question, which is for Vic Valentine. Do you accept that policies based around gender self-identification potentially open up employers and service providers to discrimination claims on the basis of sex and religion or belief?

Thank you for that.

I thank the witnesses for all the information that they have provided so far.

I asked this question of the witnesses on the first panel—those of you who were here will have heard me ask it—but I did not really get a response, so here’s hoping that I get some direction and a response from you.

The provision of single-sex spaces and services is vital for women, including BAME women and those from religious backgrounds. During consideration of the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, I highlighted that many religious women do not feel comfortable being touched by biological male doctors or nurses when, for example, smear tests or breast examinations are being performed.

As you know, the NHS employs many women from BAME backgrounds, and they will now be made to feel uncomfortable and scared to speak up, especially given what has happened to Sandie Peggie and how she has been treated. Changing in front of a biological male would mean that those women would break their religion—religion is, by the way, also a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. Does that mean that all those women will have to go through a tribunal?

I do not understand why, on the one hand, the public are given separate prayer rooms but, on the other hand, single-sex facilities are taken away. That defeats the purpose of promoting equality. As you will know, before praying, women of faith need to use the facilities without the presence of a biological male. Should it be mandatory for all public bodies to offer single-sex spaces and services?

Good morning. I thank the witnesses for the information that they have supplied so far. Last week, the committee received a submission from Sandie Peggie’s lawyers. As you might know, Sandie Peggie is a nurse who was suspended from NHS Fife for refusing to use a changing room with a biologically male colleague. In the submission, Sandie Peggie’s lawyers wrote:

“Unfortunately, the PSED has zero prospects of delivering on its aims to improve outcomes for people with protected characteristics if listed authorities adopt the same cavalier approach to PSED compliance as FHB has.”

The submission clearly shows that the rights of trans-identifying males were put above the rights of women. No woman should ever be treated this way.

What are your local authorities doing to ensure that women and girls are not treated the same way as Sandie Peggie was treated? For example, are the rights of women and girls respected in council-run facilities such as single-sex toilets and changing rooms? Can you guarantee that you are complying with the Equality Act 2010? Do you believe that self-identification is trumping the Equality Act 2010 and is above women and girls’ rights?

I will go to Nareen Turnbull first.