Chamber and committees

Sure. I am happy just to hear from Mr Wallace.

It was remiss of me at the start of this contribution not to declare for the record my interest as an OSCR-registered charity trustee until 2023.

On the point about people rating the website as helpful, is that about searching the register or trying to access information? Do we have that level of detail?

Where measures are not being met—for example, the target for dealing with concerns cases is not being achieved—is there a resourcing issue? Does OSCR require further resource to drive some of that work forward, or is it more about the existing resource?

Good morning to our panel. A number of these issues were touched on in opening comments, but we are particularly interested in a couple of areas in relation to performance.

In the performance report for 2023-2024, we had noted some data not being available for certain key performance indicators, most notably the number of website visitors and the helpfulness rating. I know that we have started to touch on some of the investments that are being made, but what progress would OSCR hope to make in respect of that more widely?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I do not have too much more to add. Daniel Johnson has made eloquent arguments on all the amendments and, in particular, on my amendment 15.

Through amendment 15, I seek to ensure that the consensus on a mental health moratorium is stated in the bill and in law, compelling ministers to lay regulations before the Parliament for consideration. As we spoke to stakeholders during the progress of the bill, and at stage 2, it was clear that there is a need for the moratorium and a desire to move forward with it as quickly as possible.

Daniel Johnson made a number of important points to the minister about the nature of framework bills. The challenge is often in being able to properly scrutinise them and their detail. The point that he made about the committee’s scrutiny of the draft regulations being done in a tight window was well made. It is clear that, with this framework bill, we want to be able to compel the Government but also to give it the opportunity to introduce further regulations to enhance the bill and move it forward. I note, as Daniel Johnson did, the work that the minister has done through his amendments to bring it forward.

I thank Martin Whitfield for his intervention and for the point that he raises, which is important and relevant. I think that I said in my remarks that, for those outside the chamber, there is a need for certainty and for understanding about the things that they want to see in the bill that will enhance it, and there is a need to ensure that people are given adequate protection. That is a very clear point, and I am sure that the Government will want to reflect on that more widely in our proceedings today.

I believe that amendment 15 is important and that it will push the Government to ensure that the moratorium is enacted and consulted on widely. I press the amendment.

Amendment 16 is similar to an amendment that I lodged at stage 2. I took time to reflect on the process at stage 2 before lodging this amendment.

Amendment 16 would grant ministers the power, if it were to be deemed necessary, to make regulations requiring local authorities that are pursuing debt to take certain actions prior to taking any debt recovery action. That could include directing an individual towards free debt, money and legal advice before a summary warrant is granted by a sheriff.

Members across the chamber will know that public debt and, in particular, council tax arrears, has been a growing problem in Scotland and across the United Kingdom. Unlike private debt, it is not covered by Financial Conduct Authority regulations, which compel lenders to take measures to ensure that debtors are treated more fairly and with consideration to vulnerabilities. A 2023 report by Aberlour Children’s Charity highlighted that 55 per cent of low-income families in Scotland that were in receipt of universal credit had at least one deduction from their monthly income to cover debts to public bodies. Another recent report from StepChange found that, in 2021 and 2022, 32 per cent of its clients were in arrears with their council tax. It cannot be right that public bodies and local authorities are on their way to becoming the largest collectors of debt.

Debt collection practices across local authorities vary widely and, in some instances, can be viewed as problematic and quite callous. Examples of that have been relayed in the chamber before, such as the collection of school meals debt by sheriff officers. It is clear that the same level of protection and regulation that often applies to private debt is not there. We seek better practice and more support for individuals, which we are not seeing currently.

I understand from my engagement with Tom Arthur when he was in the role and from my engagement with the current minister that work is on-going with local authorities and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on such matters. Indeed, pilot programmes have been conducted and work has been done with third sector organisations such as Citizens Advice Scotland to improve that landscape. I know that that work is under review and that the Scottish Government has not yet decided whether regulations would be the best way to deal with those issues. However, I do not want us to be back in the chamber in six months or a year after the Government has considered all that and for us to conclude that regulations are needed. We do not want to miss the boat on that legislation.

Amendment 16 seeks to create a regulatory space now, without requiring ministers to use the provisions immediately, so that they can continue their on-going consultation work and engagement around need as well as exploring the best path forward for regulations. The Government could then bring forward regulations when it is necessary. I am pleased that my amendment has the support of stakeholders such as Citizens Advice Scotland, Aberlour Children’s Charity and the Govan Law Centre. I look forward to hearing from the minister on the record about the Scottish Government’s thinking on public debt and pre-action requirements. I hope that he can find his way to backing my amendment 16.

I move amendment 16.

I thank the minister and Murdo Fraser for their contributions to the debate and for the questions that were posed to me on amendment 16. There is a degree of consensus about our concern around the tactics that public sector bodies sometimes employ and, indeed, the growing scale of public sector debt and the challenge therein.

Mr Fraser asked why the amendment singles out local authorities, which is a point that was made at stage 2 by his colleague, Brian Whittle. The answer is that local authorities hold the lion’s share of that public sector debt in a local way and are using those very concerning tactics that I mentioned in relation to things such as school meals debt, council tax arrears and various other sundry debts that come under councils. They have the power to act and take different approaches, and I think that we have seen that.

That also relates to the minister’s point. There is something of a postcode lottery—if I can use that expression—or a variance in the approaches that are taken by local authorities across Scotland, which is proving to be challenging. For example, pilot projects in Tayside, and Dundee City Council, working with Aberlour, as I mentioned, have taken different approaches to the principles that they follow in collection of debt. They have worked intensively with debtors in order to get them the support that is required.

That brings me to the broader point where we have agreement—certainly, I have agreement with the minister—on the need to support local authorities and public bodies to take as many pre-actions as are required in order to support people to be good citizens and, of course, to pay their debt where that is owed, in a way that helps them to maximise their income and get all the support that they are entitled to.

In response to the minister’s point about respect for local authorities, as a former councillor of 10 years’ standing, I have huge respect for local authorities and the decisions that they make. However, it is important to note that the amendment has changed in nature since stage 2. At stage 2, it would have compelled local authorities in a more direct way. The minister, Tom Arthur, and I had an exchange of a similar nature in committee on the stage 2 amendment, which was far more directive and required the Government to direct local authorities. Amendment 16 would simply allow Scottish ministers, if required, to make those regulations. Obviously, we would want to see a huge degree of consultation and discussion before bringing forward any powers. That is why I drafted amendment 16 in this way at stage 3.

Mr Fraser asked about my interactions with COSLA. I will be honest about the fact that my discussions have been with individual local authority leaders on some of those issues, rather than with COSLA more directly. Those leaders share the concerns about the postcode lottery that I talked about and agree that, where there is best practice in an authority, that should be replicated across the country. The minister has said that he intends to develop that work and move it forward, but we should have that power, if it is required, on the statute book. On that basis, I press amendment 16.

We have had a particularly constructive and helpful debate on the group of amendments and the issues that are raised therein. The minister perhaps summed it up when he spoke about the pressures that still exist given the volatile period that we have had with inflation and the uncertainty for people across the country in dealing with the cost of living. The amendments in the group seek to ensure that those who are in debt and are being pursued for that debt are given the right support to protect their incomes and the balances in their accounts, particularly where they are in receipt of social security.

I heard what the minister said about his view and the Government’s view of the provisions in the Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Act 2022 and the work that has already been done to increase the minimum balance. I recognise his view that there is a provision in that act that will enable him and the Government to vary that as required. On that basis and given the assurance from the minister, I will not press amendment 17.

We have also had an important discussion about Colin Smyth’s amendments in the group, which seek to ensure that there is more detail on protecting those balances. I welcome the minister’s interaction and collaboration with Colin Smyth in relation to amendment 10, which will require the Scottish ministers to fully consult on and test the principles, as Colin Smyth outlined. I also welcome the commitment that the minister made today to bring forward by two years the earnings arrestment levels, to look at them in far more detail far sooner than would otherwise have been the case, and to do that in the constructive way that he set out to Parliament.

On Maggie Chapman’s amendment 24, again, we understand and respect the principle and where it comes from. We would point to Colin Smyth’s work on amendment 10, but also to some of the concerns that have been expressed about devolved competence and the adverse effect that there might be if the restrictions were added to the 1987 act. Although I understand the principle and would support it, we have to be a little careful there.

It was important to have the debate on the group so that we can move forward in a constructive way with the Government, which I hope we will when we vote on the amendments.

Amendment 17, by agreement, withdrawn.

Amendment 15 is rather simple and is intended to give greater permanency to and certainty on the creation of the mental health moratorium.

At stage 2, I lodged amendments that would have put the moratorium and some of the provisions on it into the bill. The driving force behind that—behind all my amendments in this regard—has been the concerns from stakeholders that there has not been certainty about the nature of the moratorium or its creation. At stage 2, we had a good discussion on the potential detail of the moratorium, and I accepted the arguments of the minister at the time, Tom Arthur, about the desire to keep the moratorium in regulations, which would mean that changes and improvements could be made over time as their impact was reviewed. I understand those arguments. That is why, having reflected on the Government’s response, which was to publish regulations to allow people to see what is proposed and interact with it, I have brought back at stage 3 the simpler amendment 15 for the purpose of providing more certainty around the moratorium.

We want certainty that a mental health moratorium will exist. I do not doubt the Scottish Government’s intent or desire. As I have said, there have been numerous productive discussions in that regard. However, it is important that we set that out in the bill because, although we all agree in principle, it is necessary that those who are struggling see the Parliament’s intent on what we will do in regulations to support them.

The other purpose of amendment 15 is to be somewhat probing: to ensure that we can have a debate about the nature of the moratorium, so that the minister can perhaps say more about the details of what he has published to consult on, and so that we can hear a number of views on what should or should not be in scope for the wider moratorium. Indeed, there have been lots of discussions about who will qualify for the moratorium, what sorts of treatments will qualify and what sort of mental health professionals may attest to the need for support through a moratorium. It is important that we continue to have such debates.

I will comment briefly on the other amendments in the group. I support my colleague Daniel Johnson’s amendment 23, which would ensure that ministers could make only regulations that were within the scope of the long title of the bill, maintaining a place for Parliament in any further work. I also note and welcome the minister’s amendments to strengthen the commitment to review and enhance scrutiny procedures in relation to regulations. That is important for scrutiny and getting things right.

I look forward to further debate this afternoon and to the minister laying out the detail of his amendments and any further draft regulations that will be laid before Parliament and consulted on.

I move amendment 15.