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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 May 2025
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Displaying 994 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

I will expand on the point about the practicalities of the bill. It is a framework bill that has some very clear things to say, and it will have a very clear effect on local government, but the written submissions say that there is also concern about what is not said about secondary legislation. In its submission, Inverclyde Council says:

“Leaving so much to secondary legislation will mean there will be no effective consultation, no opportunities for expert advice and experience to influence the details and a lack of transparency and democratic accountability.”

To be fair to the Government, I think that it would contend that there will be a co-designed process, but is it your view that that is the wrong way round and that there should have been a co-designed process first, followed by the bill?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

Good morning, panel. I will begin with some questions on what is felt to be the lack of detail, which is being left to secondary legislation, and the lack of local accountability, on which many of you share comments in your submissions.

Starting with COSLA’s approach and its submission, I think that it is fair to say that it is very concerning to read local government’s view on what the bill will do to the provision of services by local government. At COSLA, unanimous cross-party concerns have been raised about the bill, and leaders have unanimously agreed that position. I was a councillor for 10 years and I do not recall such unanimity at COSLA, particularly through its leaders. Councillor Kelly, will you explain how that position was reached and what the concerns are?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Paul O'Kane

I want to ask about social work. I imagine that it is challenging to make a comparison, because the scope of the bill goes beyond the practical delivery of social care. Northern Ireland is perhaps a good example to look at, because social work there is delivered slightly differently via more of a health board model. Have you found any international examples of elements of social work, as a profession, being put into a national social care structure?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Paul O'Kane

Do those arrangements involve criminal justice, children and young people’s services or learning disability services, for example, as well as just older people’s services?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Paul O'Kane

We have begun to touch on the issue of what the bill will actually achieve. I would like to reflect on some of the commentary that there has been since the bill’s publication. The Centre for Care said that there must be greater clarity on how the reforms will achieve the intended goals. It asked how we will test the bill against the theory of change and how we will establish whether it has done what we want it to do. There has been commentary on whether the bill will fully deliver the recommendations of the Feeley review, and there has been commentary from trade unions on whether it will do anything to tackle the issues around pay and terms and conditions. Unison has gone as far as to say that the bill should be paused.

In that context, I am keen to get a sense of how the bill can achieve the aims that have been set out. Perhaps we could start with Nick Kempe.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Paul O'Kane

That leads me neatly on to my next question. The sense that I am getting from those contributions is that this has to be about cultures, not structures, and that we have to avoid that top-down approach. Indeed, Reform Scotland said in response to the call for views that there has not been an

“adequate explanation about why simply removing local government”,

for example, from social care would lead to implementation or to innovation in delivery. Do the panellists agree that we need to look at that in a more rounded fashion?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Petitions

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Paul O'Kane

Forgive me—we have not done this before as a committee. As there is obviously an issue relating to local government and the structure of local government, is that an issue for the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee? With the best will in the world, we are not going to be able to make a recommendation on the restructuring of local government in Scotland.

That is just a thought, and I am not sure how the ping-pong between committees works.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Paul O'Kane

I wonder whether Sir Harry wants to come in, particularly in relation to testing change. Obviously, he has experience of testing change and seeing what works.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Petitions

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Paul O'Kane

Pardon that expression.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Health and Social Care Integration

Meeting date: 4 October 2022

Paul O'Kane

Sure. Putting the pandemic to one side, do you get the sense that integration is well embedded, or is it still very much a work in progress in terms of the wider picture?