Chamber and committees

I begin by reiterating the remarks that I made at the beginning of proceedings this afternoon, which have also been made by the cabinet secretary and Jeremy Balfour, in thanking all who have been involved in the bill process, not least the staff on the bill team, the committee clerks and everyone else who has been involved in ensuring the smooth progress of the legislation.

Today offers us an opportunity to reflect on the devolution of social security to Scotland and on the intervening period, taking stock of that journey and the opportunity to update the legislation that governs much of what we do on social security. In doing so, we have an opportunity to reflect on the successes, the challenges and what still has to be done to ensure that we progress with a system that works for everyone.

We, on this side of the chamber, have been very clear that there are welcome steps in the bill and that welcome things have come from the process of devolving social security. For example, the Scottish child payment was a welcome step that was supported by members on this side of the chamber. Putting it on a legislative footing and ensuring that it continues to command the support of members and wider support in Scotland allows us to affirm again our support for it. It is an example of the strength of devolution in that we are doing what it was intended to do and attempting to make progress in supporting children and families across Scotland, ensuring that the poorest in our society are better supported.

The Social Justice and Social Security Committee has had many debates about how we can better analyse and better understand the impact that policies have. I will also reflect on some of the challenges that we have seen in Social Security Scotland. I know that the cabinet secretary is not immune to those challenges, and we have debated them many times, including in various parts of today’s debate. There have been challenges in long processing times, including, most notably, real challenges in the introduction of child and adult disability payments and in people having to wait too long. We must continue to watch that very closely and take action as required.

There have also been challenges in the transfer of devolved payments, including employment injury assistance. We have debated that in other contexts, and we must keep it at the forefront of our minds as we continue to develop Social Security Scotland and consider what more we have to do in the transfer of other benefits.

I will also comment on the challenges that exist around information technology infrastructure and making sure that the system is as flexible and supportive as possible. We know that there is an overrun in IT costs, and there have been challenges with telephony, which we have debated many times in Parliament. I accept that progress is being made, but we have to continually monitor and review those processes to ensure that there is the most efficient use of public money when it comes to what we are developing in the agency. It is clear that, in some instances, the challenges continue to grow, but there has also been action to look at those issues and slowly begin to tackle them. I hope that the bill provides another stepping stone on the journey to tackling those challenges.

We have welcomed a number of the amendments, today and at stage 2, that have sought to make the bill stronger and to continue to improve the system. Today, we have had a variety of debates on new social security payments such as the pension age winter heating payment. We have had amendments that have sought to tidy up parts of the bill and parts of the system. We have had the important amendment on uprating for inflation, which puts into legislation something that will ensure that we continue to drive forward progress on the payments that are being made to people.

There were some important amendments that we did not agree to but that are worth future reflection and continued thought—on the rights of appeal and ensuring that we can build case law that is supportive of people. With regard to the issue of having key performance indicators, which Jeremy Balfour raised, it is important that we reflect clearly on how we are able to scrutinise what is being done by our national agencies, such as Social Security Scotland, and how public money is being spent.

What we require now is implementation of the legislation at pace, as well as more rapid actions to get on with resolving issues in the system that do not require any provisions in the bill.

Scottish Labour remains committed to holding the Government and Social Security Scotland accountable for the way in which social security is administered within the devolved framework and for the pledges that have been made, which have often not been lived up to. However, recognising the many positive changes that are in the bill, we will support its passing at decision time and we will continue to work with the Government and other Opposition parties to do everything that we have set out in today’s debate.

The cabinet secretary will recall that I raised these issues at stage 2 and suggested that there would be an opportunity for a debate and further discussion in the chamber at stage 3. I do not think that it is fair to characterise me as not wishing to engage.

I note that the cabinet secretary brought her statement on energy costs to the chamber on Thursday with less than 10 minutes’ notice to members. She never mentioned this to me previously, so I do not think that what she has said is in the spirit of trying to find consensus.

The cabinet secretary has made an important point about the care leaver payment, which we debated at stages 1 and 2 of the bill. Will she say something more about her engagement with the many organisations that represent care-experienced young people? Will she be able to attend some of the many cross-party groups that have an interest in that area, not the least of which is the cross-party group on care leavers?

They do not want to hear this.

Despite our discussion of and debate about the issue over many months, it has taken the cabinet secretary until now to confirm what she will do with a new devolved payment in future and also what she will do now that she knows that the Barnett consequentials are there.

The cabinet secretary has been telling me for months that she cannot do anything because she does not know what the budget will be, that she cannot base the budget on

“a wing, a prayer and a promise”,—[Official Report, 3 October 2024; c 44.]

that she did not know that there would be £41 million this year and £82 million next year or what she would do in future. The UK budget has made things clearer, and that is why I have lodged amendment 21.

I appreciate that the Scottish National Party does not want to take the opportunity to bring Parliament together to look at the future of this devolved benefit and to put it on a legislative footing. As I said at stage 2, there is an opportunity to ensure that we have a discussion about what pension age winter heating assistance should look like.

My amendment 22 shows that there is an opportunity to look at how we do that in future. We know that receipt of pension credit is the criterion for the delivery of winter heating assistance. In her announcement last week, the cabinet secretary said that anyone whose income takes them above pension credit level will receive £100. There is an opportunity to look at how we might do things differently in Scotland, where we have a devolved payment. At stage 2, I raised comments that we had from the Poverty and Inequality Commission and others, who have pointed to the need to make a fairer system so that those who have a higher income or pension do not receive money that they are not entitled to.

Scottish Labour supports the amendments in group 5. We recognise that it is important that people have a final right of appeal to the Upper Tribunal. We note that organisations such as CPAG have pointed out—as we have heard—that that could help the development of precedent around process decisions, which may, over time, build up a better understanding of how the social security system is working and mean that more effective decisions are made earlier in the appeals process. As a result, we will support these amendments.

I have only four minutes, and I am in my third minute, so I apologise, Mr Doris, because I have more to say.

I thought that Willie Rennie made an important contribution on keeping the Promise and the care leaver payment, and I reflect on the exchange that I had with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice in my intervention. It is vital that, as we develop any new payments to support people who are care experienced, their voices are at the heart of the design. I am glad that the cabinet secretary agreed that that should be our approach, and I look forward to continuing conversations on that.

I reflect on the contribution from my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy about the bespoke services that are required to support disabled people to navigate the social security system, and about disabled people’s ambition and desire to work. She made a key point about ensuring that we protect and invest in those bespoke advice and support services. That is worth reflecting on ahead of the budget tomorrow.

In concluding—I am up against the four-minute mark—Scottish Labour will of course support the bill, because we think that it is an important step in progressing our social security system in Scotland, but it is important that, across the chamber, we are open to continuing scrutiny and conversation about how we develop that system.

We welcome the cabinet secretary’s tidying-up amendments in this group. The changes made at stage 2 to remove the need for an error to be identified were a positive change to the bill and were welcomed by stakeholders. We recognise the need to make some tweaks pursuant to the previous amendments, and we will therefore support the Government’s amendments in this group.

I have heard what Mr Balfour has said about his amendments, both at stage 3 and at stage 2. Unfortunately, despite the good intent behind them, we will not support them today. We believe that, if a new determination is made due to a change in circumstances, it is important that clients retain the right to request a redetermination of the new decision before proceeding to an appeal, which, as we have heard, can often be intimidating and is perhaps a less preferable option.

In concert with what we have heard, I would say that we hope, as a result of on-going work and other provisions in the bill, that there will be fewer mistakes and quicker decisions in the first place, which should drive down the need for redetermination and/or appeal. We will continue to work with the Government and will hold it to account on that point.

We are now at stage 3 of the bill, having had a debate at stage 2 about the nature of pension age winter heating payment. Those who followed the stage 2 process, when Mr Balfour lodged amendments on the topic, will know that I was very clear in my remarks that it was important that Parliament had the chance to debate the nature of the fully devolved version of pension age winter heating assistance. That is what we are trying to do today, in setting out an opportunity to talk about how that benefit should look going forward.

My amendment 21 simply seeks to put the universal nature of pension age winter heating payment on a legislative footing. Again, I refer to my comments at stage 2, when I said that it was worthy of a debate and a discussion across the whole Parliament. Amendment 21 requires Scottish ministers to bring in new regulations by the end of next November to ensure that all pensioners are entitled to some form of assistance from winter 2025-26. I have consistently said throughout the process that we have to look at pension age winter heating assistance in Scotland in the context that we are in.

I recognise that I have asked the cabinet secretary a number of times what her plans are for this winter. It is clear that a last-minute decision was made and announced last Thursday about what will happen this winter, including in relation to the £41 million—which I have referenced throughout the process—from the household support fund, which will rise to £82 million next year. I recognise the Government’s decision to spend that money more broadly.

We offered a package of measures that could have been put in place this year, but those have not been undertaken. The Northern Ireland Executive, for example, has been working on how to use that money this year to support winter heating assistance and move to a £100 payment from the household support fund, but that has not happened here in Scotland.

The Scottish Government has repeatedly said that it supports universal payments but, as I have been told by the cabinet secretary and by others in the chamber, talk is cheap, and it will stay cheap unless the payment that we are discussing is put on to a legislative footing.

As we have now learned from various sources, the commitment that was made on Thursday was rushed and thrown together. There is real concern that, although an announcement was made here, there is no legislative foundation for it. The devolution of pension age winter heating payment surely gives us an opportunity to set out in statute how that payment will continue. It is only fair that we have this debate here today and take the opportunity to vote on that new devolved benefit and put it on a legislative footing.

Let us be honest: the commitment that came from the Government, late in the day, was possible only because of the record block grant that has been provided following the UK budget. [Interruption.]

I am concluding and do not intend to take the intervention because there will be opportunities for further contributions.

As I said, there is an opportunity for Parliament to come together on this issue and to put into statute something that I think that we all support.

I am grateful to have the opportunity to close the stage 3 debate on behalf of Scottish Labour, and to reflect again on some of the contributions that we have heard, and some of the progress that we have made on the social security system in Scotland.

During the bill’s journey, we have been able to reflect on what is working in social security and on what could be improved. The debates that we have had on the amendments at stage 2 and stage 3 have allowed us to do that. I am sure that there is much for the cabinet secretary to reflect on with regard to what more needs to be done, and for all of us to reflect on in considering the need for continued scrutiny of Social Security Scotland and the on-going potential for new benefits, which I will come on to speak about.

I will reflect briefly on Maggie Chapman’s opening and concluding contributions. I heard what she said about the UK Labour Government and our ambitious plan to support people to get back into well-paid and secure work and put our new deal for working people, which I have spoken about many times in the chamber, on a legislative footing to ensure that work pays and is secure for people. That is absolutely a driving agenda for the UK Government.

It is also worth reflecting that many people in this country want to work but cannot, because they are not getting the support that they need to be able to do so; we should not shy away from that. The UK Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Liz Kendall, has made it clear that, with £240 million-worth of investment across the UK, we can help people to get back into the workplace. However, people need to know that there is always a safety net, that there is no judgment, that there will be support when they need it and that they are not being forced back into work. It is clear that that is the agenda in the Government’s white paper on getting Britain working again.

We hope that the Scottish Government will be part of that partnership, because—this is important—good things happen here in Scotland in relation to employability and supporting people to get back into work, but there is more to do. Maggie Chapman spoke about universal services. We need to have a health service that works and delivers for people, so that they can get the support that they need to go back to work. Tomorrow’s budget will show us the reality of the money that has come from the UK Government and whether that will be spent on health and social care, as we have called on the Scottish Government to do.

I will touch briefly on Marie McNair’s contribution. I thought that she made some good points about the committee’s work, but I was disappointed to hear the tone that she took on pension age winter heating assistance. We had a debate today in which we had an opportunity to vote as a Parliament to put that on a legislative footing—I have rehearsed those arguments. I point out to Ms McNair the support that is coming to this Parliament through the UK budget—£1.5 billion this year and £3.4 billion next year. We will see the colour of that money tomorrow in the budget process, and I am sure that ministers will be listening intently to this debate.