Chamber and committees

Thank you, minister. I will follow on from that point. We are meeting during COP26, and the climate change aspect of clean air is linked to the public health duty. The “Clear the air” report from Asthma UK and the British Lung Foundation highlighted the specific impact that poor air quality has on low income communities. I am keen to get a sense of what we are doing within the strategy to target those low income communities and areas of multiple deprivation, with regard to issues such as active travel and active transport.

I wonder if I might pivot on to a point that Colin Poolman raised. Everyone has spoken this morning about the challenges in retention. It is evidently a huge challenge to keep people in the system and to support people to remain in it. I am keen to understand from Colin Poolman whether he feels that the Scottish Government’s seasonal planning—the winter plan—has done much to support retention, particularly in nursing.

Thank you very much, convener. I appreciate that we are tight for time.

We are still living through the pandemic, and last winter was unprecedented. I am keen to understand how you feel about the lessons learned from last winter. Has the Government learned what worked and what did not work so well, and have those lessons been factored into the winter preparedness plan?

My question is also for Annie Gunner Logan. I have heard a lot about unpaid carers being in crisis because they feel that they cannot access the packages that they need or because they have been told by their local authority that their package will have to be scaled or cut back. In relation to care at home, that is the case not only for older people, but particularly for people who have learning disabilities. From the work that you do with providers and your survey work, do you have the sense that there is something of a crisis for unpaid carers, too?

Yes, thank you for giving us more time, minister. We have had a meaningful discussion about public health and the huge amount that needs to be done. The narrative of a public health Parliament has permeated the discussion.

We are dealing with Covid-19 and its far-reaching impact. In the next part of the meeting, we will hear about the pressures on our NHS as we approach the winter. How can we address the wider public health challenges, which have been exacerbated by the pandemic, while dealing with the huge challenge of remobilisation and getting the delivery of acute services, in particular, back to the right level?

My question is for John Mooney, and Annie Gunner Logan might be able to comment as well. The point that you have made is essentially that we need to deal with pay in the care sector more broadly. John Thomson alluded to the fact that you can work in a supermarket or do bar work and earn more money than you can in social care. What is your view of trade unions, such as the GMB, Unison and others, campaigning for £15 an hour as a standard wage for care work?

We see those pressures every winter, and I take your point about elective surgeries. However, do you feel that the unusual circumstances of the pandemic and the cancellation of more and more elective surgery will create a problem for us at the other end of winter?

It is clear that a range of factors have contributed to the challenges around retention. Brexit is often cited as the key issue.

To pick up on what Annie Gunner Logan said, what mitigation work was done by the Scottish Government for care providers prior to Brexit? Was a detailed piece of work done to tackle what were perceived to be the challenges around staffing as a result of Brexit?

I associate myself with the thanks given to all our vaccination staff as we acknowledge the vaccination milestone.

The Deputy First Minister referred in his statement to concerns about winter flu and the pressures of the flu season. The roll-out of the flu vaccine must go faster if we are to ensure that vulnerable Scots are not left unprotected this winter. In common with colleagues across the chamber, I have heard about issues for people who have respiratory problems but have not been called for their flu vaccine and people who provide transport for someone else in their household being unable to travel with them. Nursery staff in my region were told that they will not be vaccinated against flu in school along with the teaching staff because they work in a separate area of the school campus. Instead, they were told to make their own arrangements. Given the urgency of the situation, with the flu season approaching, will the Deputy First Minister tell me what percentage of people who are eligible will have received a flu jab by Christmas and provide a firm date by which he expects the most vulnerable people to be protected from flu before the onset of midwinter?

I thank all the organisations that provided briefing material ahead of today’s debate. We have heard about the work of the Child Poverty Action Group in Scotland and the MS Society.

The creation of Social Security Scotland is testament to the power of devolution, and we want to use those powers and make sure that they have a real impact on people’s lives. I think that we have heard a degree of consensus on that in the chamber today.

The cabinet secretary began by talking about the human rights approach that we want, and we have heard from all around the chamber that a cross-party effort is required if we are to get it right. I hope that we will have further opportunities to discuss the matter in the chamber. Today, we will end our debate without having votes on a motion and amendments, but I think that it is important that we come back to the subject in order to allow Opposition parties to continue our scrutiny of the process in an effort to get the best possible outcomes from enabling people to access new benefits.

Today’s publication of the Scottish Government’s strategy has shown that there are gaps in knowledge about who is using our social security system and how we can encourage people to take up the benefits to which they are entitled. I will start by reflecting on the Scottish child payment, which my colleague Foysol Choudhury has just covered and which Pam Duncan-Glancy also spoke about.

The data that has been published shows that only 77 per cent of eligible households are accessing the Scottish child payment. That means that, even with further investment, we are not reaching almost a quarter of the families who are entitled to it. We know from organisations including the Child Poverty Action Group what we can and must do in order to reach that extra 23 per cent of eligible households. We must ensure that we invest in analysis of applications in order to identify better the families who are eligible. Data is key. With data in hand, the Scottish Government should be able to reach out to more families and put that money in their pockets. We know how crucial that is in respect of lifting more of Scotland’s young people out of poverty, as colleagues have said.

I think that we all agree that there is a need to invest more in the system. There is some consensus on the need to ensure that we have a system that works, that knows where people are and that seeks to meet them. With that in mind, although the strategy that has been published has some detail on what has come before, I am concerned that there is a lack of detail on the strategic approach to increasing benefit uptake under the new system.

The point that Alexander Stewart made about targeting priority groups is key in that regard. The point was echoed by Miles Briggs, who spoke about the support that is needed for various groups of people, including people who suffer from poor mental health who have been supported by the Scottish Association for Mental Health. More needs to be done to reach those groups, to find out what the barriers are and to work with them to ensure that they get access to their benefits.

A number of members spoke powerfully about stigma, which continues to be a significant barrier for people. I hope that the minister will say something about that in his summing-up speech.

Maggie Chapman and others mentioned the importance of automation in the benefits system. Automation has been a central priority for the Scottish Labour Party. We believe that automation would effectively overcome many of the significant barriers to take-up, which include lack of knowledge about entitlements. If an individual could make one claim that would automatically trigger their entitlement to other supports, that would have a hugely positive upward impact on take-up rates. Most important, it would also help to reduce and prevent poverty and to support people’s wellbeing.

Another key area that has been raised by the MS Society Scotland is issues surrounding the adult disability payment and ending of the 20m rule, which members from across the chamber, including Willie Rennie, Foysol Choudhury and Pam Duncan-Glancy, spoke about. The 20m rule is incompatible with a system that is based on dignity, respect and fairness. It is an archaic rule that stipulates that if a person can walk that distance, that justifies their not having access to the enhanced rate of mobility support. The rule harms people with disabilities—it takes money out of their pockets, which means that they lose their independence. Throughout the debate, we have heard that limiting a person’s independence and their ability to socialise, to go to work and to lead a more normal life has huge ramifications and impacts.

We have a lot more work to do when it comes to righting the wrongs of past systems and ensuring better uptake of benefits. Colleagues have spoken about the importance of availability of advocacy and advice; Marie McNair spoke about the importance of the role of local government in funding welfare rights and advice. I am sure that we all want advocacy and advice to be at the heart of the new system.

My colleague Mark Griffin spoke passionately about his member’s bill. I hope that the cabinet secretary will accept Mark’s offer of working in a spirit of partnership on that agenda. There must be further dialogue on that.

There is often a temptation to make this about the UK Government versus the Scottish Government—Westminster versus Holyrood. Some members strayed a little into that area this afternoon. However, what I have seen, and what Emma Roddick powerfully spelled out for us, is that it is about the importance of people’s lived experience and ensuring that we work together collectively to drive co-operation between the Governments to support those of our constituents who most need the support of social security.