Chamber and committees

Will the minister give way?

This is now the fourth debate that we have had on social security in Government time in 12 months, but it differs from the previous debates because this latest debate from the Government is the clearest demonstration that ministers have their heads in the sand—or, perhaps more accurately, in the clouds. Instead of having a debate about the context of the social security system that the Scottish Government is responsible for, we are debating a fantasy plan for social security in a future independent Scotland.

I will begin by speaking about the social security system in Scotland and the challenges in that system, which is wholly devolved to the SNP Government. The cabinet secretary speaks about fairness, dignity and respect—and she did so in our debate prior to the recess—but it is clear that that is not the experience of everyone in the system. For many people, the Government is falling short of delivering the system that people need.

I always like to bring a degree of consensus. There have been welcome interventions such as the Scottish child payment, which is broadly supported across this place and has been supported by this side. We have to use all the tools in our arsenal to tackle child poverty. It is clear to me, however, that we need bold action. We have to tackle the root causes of poverty, and we have to do so with a strong economy that can prioritise growth and redistribute the money from that growth across our country, investing it in public services.

We need bolder action to tackle the fact that one in 10 Scots is locked in persistent low pay and to tackle insecure and inadequate housing, ensuring that people have access to affordable roofs over their heads. It does not help when the Scottish Government makes decisions in its budget that adversely impact that aim. I will give two examples of that. Parental employability funds, which serve to lift people out of poverty and get them into work, have been cut by £20 million a year, and the affordable housing supply budget has been slashed by 27 per cent in real terms.

Mr Hepburn suggests that powers should be either in the hands of the Conservative Government or here. I disagree—I think that, within the devolved settlement, it is right that we control the elements of social security that we are making progress on. It is clear to me that the Tories will not be around forever, because change is coming with a Labour Government that will fundamentally reform social security in this country, invest in the economic growth that we need to fund public services and make the changes that we need.

In a moment.

Forty per cent of claimants who are in receipt of universal credit are in work, so we know that we need to make fundamental changes to work in this country in order to support people. That is what a Labour Government offers. We offer a real living wage, an end to fire and rehire, an end to zero-hours contracts and investment in workers’ rights from day 1. That will be a substantial change to the prospects of many people in this country, and it will put money in their pockets and lift them out of poverty, just as we did when we were last in government. [Interruption.] Mr Hepburn from a sedentary position says that that is the past, as though it were a small moment, but a million children were lifted out of poverty, which has fundamentally changed the lives of people in this country, and that is what is important.

Mr Hepburn knows my position on the two-child cap. It is a heinous policy that needs to be changed. [Interruption.]

It is interesting that Ms Haughey has brought up the matter of pensions. We do not have any detail from the Scottish Government on pensions in an independent Scotland. She wants to have a debate about pensions right now, but the SNP does not have a paper on pensions, it does not know how it is going to pay for them, and it does not know about the currency. What a Labour Government will quite clearly do is fundamentally reform the social contract—as we did when we were last in government, to take a million pensioners out of poverty—to make things fairer and better. That is what Labour Governments do.

I am conscious that I have been generous with interventions and that time is getting on, so I will draw my contribution to a close.

The change that Scotland needs is not another self-indulgent fantasy paper to make SNP ministers and back benchers feel good—I am sure that it feels great to be in the Parliament, talking about that. The reality is that people need help right now. We have been clear throughout that a UK Labour Government will provide change in the form of the fundamental reform of the social contract that is required.

More than that, it is about supporting people into work as a route out of poverty; ensuring that people have good, high-quality jobs, a living wage and trade union rights; and ending zero-hours contracts and insecure work. That is the change that a Labour Government offers. We did not see anything in the paper about routes into work and about jobs, and we did not hear anything about them in the cabinet secretary’s contribution. All that we heard was more of the same.

The reality is that we need to see change, and we can have change faster with a Labour Government. That is what we need, not more debates about a fantasy independence prospectus that may never come to pass.

I move amendment S6M-12203.2, to leave out from “welcomes” to end and insert:

“acknowledges that the people of Scotland would be best served by a social security system that embeds dignity, fairness and respect and provides a safety net for all in a strong and growing economy; notes Scotland’s devolved social security benefits; acknowledges that delays in processing adult and child disability assessments have left disabled people stuck in limbo and out of pocket during the worst cost of living crisis in decades; notes that the Scottish Government’s decision to cut affordable housing budgets by 27 per cent in the face of a housing emergency has been labelled as baffling by organisations like the Joseph Rowntree Foundation; acknowledges that cutting vital funding for affordable housing and employability schemes harms the eradication of the causes of poverty; notes that between 2017 and 2021, 12 per cent of people have remained in persistent poverty after housing costs, and recognises that the paper, Building a New Scotland: Social security in an independent Scotland, is the latest in a series of theoretical future plans by the Scottish Government, which has already been too distracted to focus on the here and now and make the devolution of social security work for the people of Scotland.”

Will Collette Stevenson take an intervention?

I ask Mr Mason to reflect on my speech, in which I spoke about the need for fundamental reform of universal credit. Surely he agrees that the 40 per cent of people on universal credit who are in work deserve a real living wage and an end to precarious in-work poverty. Surely he agrees that the Labour Party’s policies on that are worth supporting.

This is at least the third debate that we have had on social security in the past 12 months. As always, I will begin with a note of consensus. As in previous debates, the Scottish Labour Party recognises the impact that social security has in supporting people across Scotland, particularly the Scottish child payment, which we have supported since its introduction, and the binding poverty targets that were agreed by the Parliament.

We would also reflect that our aspiration for social security in Scotland should be one that is based on dignity, fairness and respect. Indeed, the changes that the previous UK Labour Government made to the social contract, including to social security across the UK, led to 1 million children and 1 million pensioners being lifted out of poverty. The principles of dignity, fairness and respect were very much at the heart of that.

However, we must recognise that, in lodging a motion that does not recognise the significant challenges in Social Security Scotland, presents no detail on what might be done to fix the issues and, in many ways, ignores the lived experience of thousands of Scots facing the blunt end of poverty, this Government seems to be more interested in self-praise and political posturing than it is in debating solutions.

Let me be clear: we on the Labour benches will always call out the failings of the current UK Conservative Government, its crashing of and failure to grow the economy, the failure to make work pay and, bluntly, its failure to tackle poverty and show compassion to the most vulnerable people in our society. It has failed working people and should be voted out of office as soon as possible, so that a Labour Government can go about the work of reform, making work pay and reforming social security to be a proper safety net for those who need it.

I believe that Ms Forbes has participated in a number of social security debates in which we have had this interaction before. I am very clear that Labour wants to fundamentally reform the system, because universal credit does not work and it is not working for all parts of our United Kingdom. We need to fundamentally reform the entire system so that it works and ensures that people have a sufficient safety net, as I have said. It is clear to me that we have opposed all that the Tories have done, and we are clear that the system needs fundamental reform. However, we will have to do that in terms of the fiscal situation that we inherit.

I move to the challenges that we are facing in Scotland. The current Scottish Government is presiding over a system that faces significant challenges. Today, the cabinet secretary has again repeated the words “dignity, fairness and respect” when referring to the social security system. Just saying that does not make it so, because we know that, in many ways, Social Security Scotland has failed to live up to people’s expectations and their aspirations.

We should reflect on waiting times. Last summer, the chief executive of Social Security Scotland told the Social Justice and Social Security Committee that he expected the waiting times for child disability payment to fall below the 80-day mark on average by the end of the summer. The end of the summer came and the statistical releases in September showed that the waiting times were stuck very stubbornly over 100 days, at 106 days.

Last week, at the committee’s evidence session, we asked Social Security Scotland when we would see a marked improvement in the waiting times and when it would get below the 80-day mark. I am not sure that we got any clarity on when that would happen or, indeed, on how that will happen.

It would be good to hear from the cabinet secretary about what part of keeping many families with vulnerable children in that waiting period for more than three months is meeting the aspirations of dignity, fairness and respect, because we know that people really are struggling as they wait for benefits.

It is not just child disability payment, either. As was reported over the weekend and as my colleague Michael Marra has already referred to, there are reports of almost 50,000 Scots having to wait for three months for their claims to be processed. Some have waited longer than that, and many people waiting have terminal illness. Many have also had to turn to food banks as a result of the wait. Charities such as Macmillan Cancer Support are sounding the alarm and urging the Government to take urgent action. We absolutely must reflect on that, because I do not think that people would recognise that picture as according with the aspirations of dignity, fairness and respect.

Social Security Scotland has been in development or existence for five years now. We have heard in the debate about the many benefits that it delivers and much of its work that is going on. However, I think that we are past the point where many of the delays can be blamed on teething problems. It is high time that the Government accepted that it has responsibility and must be held accountable for the significant challenges in the system.

We know that social security alone cannot solve the problem of poverty in Scotland and across our United Kingdom. More than 1 million people in Scotland still live in poverty—nearly half of them in very deep poverty—according to reports from various third sector organisations. In-work poverty is on the rise, with more than 10 per cent of workers locked in persistent low pay. The Scottish Government’s statistics show that lower and middle incomes have decreased over the latest three-year period. Yet, we hold this debate in a week in which we will debate a budget that will do nothing to stimulate economic growth and will take actions such as cutting the housing budget by 27 per cent, which will clearly impact on people who are struggling on low incomes.

It is against that whole backdrop that we consider today’s motion, which is rich in praise but perhaps lacking in the reality of the situation. If we want to tackle the cost of living crisis, inequality and poverty, we need a Government that is willing to take the decisions to make work pay and to tackle the structural causes behind poverty and inequality. Positive change can be delivered by a Labour Government that is willing to get to grips with the challenges that surround the system. The previous UK Labour Government, as I have said already, understood that when it removed 2 million children and pensioners from poverty through its action. We can do the same again, by making work pay and so ending in-work poverty, by growing the economy and by fixing the broken social security system across the UK. That is the change that I believe the people of Scotland want, the change that the people of Scotland need and the change that Labour will deliver when the SNP has failed to do so.

I move amendment S6M-12079.1, to leave out from “Government’s” to end and insert:

“Child Payment; notes the stubbornly high waiting times for Child Disability Payment, where the median processing time was 106 days, and for Adult Disability Payment, where the median processing time was 83 days, according to the latest statistical releases; is concerned by the Scottish Government’s failure to sufficiently and swiftly address these long processing times, which are driving some people to rely on foodbanks, according to reports from third sector organisations; is further concerned by the rise of in-work poverty in Scotland, with over one in 10 workers locked in persistent low pay according to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, and agrees that a UK Labour administration will implement a New Deal for Working People that will end in-work poverty and implement a fundamental reform of the Universal Credit system to provide a real safety net for those who need it.”