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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 July 2025
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Displaying 553 contributions

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Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Ferry Services (Public Ownership)

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Katy Clark

I took an intervention from the member, so I am very grateful to his returning the favour.

To be absolutely clear, I am arguing against the fragmentation of the current structure. I am arguing that the ferries, CalMac, CMAL and the ports should be in public ownership, which would then enable better decision making. In my speech, I used some examples of the poor decision making that occurred as a result of the failure to have a model of that nature and to involve islanders and the workforce in that decision making.

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Ferry Services (Public Ownership)

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Katy Clark

I am grateful to the members who signed the motion to enable the debate to take place in the chamber today; to islanders, including members of the Arran Ferry Action Group; and to the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers and the Transport Salaried Staffs Association, with which I have worked on this issue.

The contract with public sector operator CalMac comes to an end in October 2024, and Parliament needs to debate what will happen at the end of the contract. Ferry services are currently in crisis. Yesterday, for example, all 10 ferry services on the Ardrossan-Brodick route were cancelled due to the withdrawal of the MV Caledonian Isles from service, which is causing havoc to islanders and, indeed, to the economy.

CalMac operates a fleet of 33 vessels across a network of 49 routes. Most industry experts agree that the average life expectancy of a ferry is about 25 years, but half of the working state-owned ferries are older than that. For example, the Caledonian Isles is 29 years old.

Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd owns and procures vessels, and ports are owned by a mix of trusts, private companies and public bodies, under a model that is the result of an obsession with privatisation over many decades. Some will try to blame the problems with the ferry service on public ownership but, in reality, the problems are a result of a failure to invest in new fleet for many years, the fragmentation of the service, a series of poor appointments of key decision makers, appalling management and political failures.

The motion argues that our ferries should remain in the public sector, and polling has repeatedly shown that Scots overwhelmingly support that model of ownership.

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Ferry Services (Public Ownership)

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Katy Clark

It may be that the minister is coming on to this point, but is she going to address the issue of ownership of ports? She will be aware, for example, that in Ardrossan, the ownership of the land and the harbour rights by Peel Ports has caused massive problems, with more than four years of delay. Is she also sympathetic to looking at how we bring ports back into public ownership, because that will make decision making easier in the public sector?

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Ferry Services (Public Ownership)

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Katy Clark

I am not saying that at all. If the member listens to the rest of my contribution, that will become self-evident.

In 2017, the Scottish Government’s procurement policy review stated that it was the Scottish Government’s intention to

“build a case for making a direct award to an in-house operator for the Clyde and Hebrides services”.

Last year, I asked the previous transport minister to confirm that that was still the Scottish Government’s policy, but he failed to give that undertaking. I hope that the current transport minister will confirm today that she is committed to a public sector model.

Despite the Scottish Government’s commitment in 2017, it commissioned the private accounting firm Ernst & Young to review the structure. It has paid the firm more than half a million pounds of taxpayers’ money since 2015. Documents that were leaked to the media from the project Neptune review revealed that ministers explicitly asked Ernst & Young to consider the unbundling of routes and privatisation as an option. Despite journalists having written articles quoting sections of the report weeks ago, the report has still not been published. Can the minister confirm today that it will be published?

We need a long-term plan for a publicly owned ferry service, and we need to learn from the mistakes of the past by having a structure that involves communities—particularly island communities—and the workforce in decision making.

We also need to address the problems that have been caused by the fragmentation of the structure. For example, vessels 801 and 802, which were debated yesterday, would not have been commissioned if the Scottish Government had been required to involve the Arran community in decision making and had listened to the representations that were made at that time. The delay of more than four years to the regeneration of Ardrossan harbour would not have happened if the harbour had still been in public ownership, rather than in the ownership of Peel Ports.

There is a widespread view that we need standardisation of the fleet, with smaller vessels. That will cut maintenance costs and ensure that ferries can operate across routes. Can the minister confirm that the Scottish Government is actively looking at that?

Today’s debate follows on from yesterday’s debate on the procurement of vessels 801 and 802, which are being built at Ferguson Marine. They are projected to cost £240 million. They are two and a half times over budget, they are four years late, and they have been described as “a catastrophic failure” by a Scottish Parliament inquiry. Audit Scotland’s report said that ministers chose not to restart the process after CMAL expressed concerns. The First Minister raced to Port Glasgow to launch the 801 all the way back in 2016. The Scottish Government continues to hold responsibility for a catalogue of bad decisions, poor appointments and eye-watering sums being wasted on executives. No minister—and definitely not the First Minister—has been willing to take responsibility.

We need the Scottish Government to come forward with a plan for a ferry service that will deliver for islanders and support the community. We know that the current structure is not working and that change is required, but we will get the best service only if we involve islanders and the workforce in a publicly owned service. I ask the minister to respond in detail to the points that I have made and to the other points that will be made in the debate. I look forward to hearing members’ speeches. I hope that the Government will commit to developing a publicly owned model with a structure that will deliver for communities.

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Ferry Services (Public Ownership)

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Katy Clark

Will the member take an intervention?

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Ferry Services (Public Ownership)

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Katy Clark

I am grateful to the minister for seeming to be sympathetic to the idea of islanders on boards, but is she sympathetic to the idea of workplace and trade union representatives on boards, too?

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Ferries

Meeting date: 23 March 2022

Katy Clark

I welcome the debate and the tone of the minister’s opening remarks, as she seemed to accept that islanders have been let down.

Islanders on Arran and Cumbrae contact me almost daily about ferry cancellations. They fully appreciate the problems that are caused by weather and by Covid, which is still with us, but they get in touch about issues connected to mechanical and technical failures, which impact on their lives and the lives of everyone in their community. This debate is about the failure to deliver a resilient ferry fleet.

In the time available, I will focus on the long-term failure to invest in new fleet on CalMac routes, the lack of an industrial strategy or procurement framework to ensure that we have the capacity to build new fleet in Scotland, and the wider issues relating to employment rights in the maritime sector, which Jackie Dunbar referred to and which have been highlighted again through the treatment of P&O workers.

Most industry experts agree that the average life expectancy of a ferry is 25 years. Half of the 31 state-owned ferries in Scotland are older than that. The MV Caledonian Isles, on the Ardrossan to Brodick route, was brought into service in 1993; the MV Loch Riddon, on the Largs to Cumbrae route, was brought into service in 1986; and the MV Isle of Arran, which is used on the Ardrossan to Campbeltown and the Ardrossan to Arran routes, was brought into service in 1983. Over the past five years, more than 1,000 ferry sailings have been delayed due to mechanical issues associated with the age of the fleet.

The consistent failure to provide investment since 2007 is one reason why we are in the position that we are in. Earlier, we heard the statement about Ferguson Marine. It is important that we put on record that it is not the workforce’s fault that we are in this position; we are in this position because of mistakes and mismanagement by politicians and management. We need to rebuild the reputation of the yard and ensure that a pipeline of future ferry contracts can be achieved, and we need to learn from the mistakes that have been made up until now.

The Scottish Government has wasted more than half a million pounds in taxpayers’ money for private firm Ernst & Young to provide advice since 2015. We have already heard that senior management have been paid eye-watering sums. We need an emergency ferries plan with a procurement strategy to ensure that our ferries are built in Scotland and that groups such as the Arran Ferry Action Group and islanders in the affected communities are involved in decision making. Frankly, if they had been more involved in the decision making that led to our having this debate, we would not be hearing these kinds of contributions from members on all sides of the chamber.

The trade unions also need to be involved in those discussions—I asked the cabinet secretary yesterday if they could be involved in discussions about P&O ferries. It is vital that the workforce in CalMac, CMAL and Ferguson Marine be involved in those discussions, too.

The Scottish Government needs to accept that mistakes have been made; it needs to stop digging and to accept that, since 2007, investment has not been made at the level that has been required, and therefore that further investment is needed to catch up. We need to start including communities in decision making, which includes having the Scottish Government agree to a public inquiry to ensure that lessons are learnt for the future.

The backdrop is the marine sector, which employment law does not fully cover. Due to the exemption of seafarers from all employment law regulations, workforces that are brought in are paid less than the national minimum wage. That is part of the reason why it is important that ferries are kept in the public sector and that Ferguson Marine, CalMac and other parts of the sector that are owned by the public are successful.

I assure the Scottish Government that it has the support of Scottish Labour in keeping these services in public ownership. However, we genuinely believe that the Government needs to listen to what communities, the workforce and all involved are saying, to learn lessons and to agree to a public inquiry, so that we do not repeat the mistakes that were made in the past.

16:27  

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Colleges (Industrial Relations)

Meeting date: 23 March 2022

Katy Clark

I fully concur with the member’s points about what the UK Government should do, but does he not accept that, in the college sector, it is a matter of policy from the Scottish Government?

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Ferries

Meeting date: 23 March 2022

Katy Clark

Is the member aware that, in the 14 years up to 2007, 26 ferries were brought into service? Does she accept that the 14 years since 2007 compare poorly with that, and that the long-term failure to invest since 2007 is the real reason why we are having this debate today?

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Ferguson Marine (Port Glasgow) Holdings Limited

Meeting date: 23 March 2022

Katy Clark

Islanders on Arran and other islands were asking for smaller vessels. Does the cabinet secretary now agree with the views of many that Ferguson Marine should have been awarded contracts for smaller, simpler ferries, which could have been constructed far more speedily for those islands?