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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 July 2025
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Displaying 984 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Katy Clark

The bill suggests the use of virtual trials as a default. From what you have said and from the information that we have been able to gather, it sounds as though, up to now, only a very small number of cases have gone ahead. It is therefore difficult to take a view, given that those cases might be the ones that are most suitable for virtual trials and everybody is in agreement.

We are having to grapple with the issue of why the holding of a virtual trial should be the default even when that is not agreed to by all parties, which is my understanding of how the provisions in the bill would work. I presume that, at the end of the day, it would be the sheriff who would decide whether it was appropriate for a case to be virtual. That is quite a massive shift.

The purpose of the bill as it has been presented to us, and the reason that we have been given for why it is going through in a far more speedy process than would normally be the case in the Parliament, is to continue practices that have been taking place during the Covid pandemic. However, the evidence that we are getting is that, in reality, virtual trials have not been taking place in significant numbers, and they have not been the default. There have been only a small number of them. What evidence do we have that the model that is proposed in the bill has been tested?

Criminal Justice Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Katy Clark

I am sorry to interrupt, but I think that you are straying into other issues to do with giving evidence remotely. What we are considering in the bill is a default position that there should be virtual trials for all domestic abuse cases, even where parties do not agree. I appreciate that that is your preference and that there may be reasons for that, but we have not really had that tested in many cases, have we?

Criminal Justice Committee

Risk Assessment in the Justice System

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Katy Clark

Sure. That is why I asked whether you were able to use other systems that you have in place to pick out the types of cases that might be of greatest concern. I wondered whether that has been incorporated into the work that is currently going on, so that the cases that were dealt with first were those involving the most serious offenders or offenders who have committed the types of offences that people would be most likely to be concerned about. Are you able to do that with the systems that are available to you?

Criminal Justice Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Katy Clark

I have just a short question. On your comment that this is a decision for the judiciary, can you confirm that if the Government felt that virtual trials at summary level were successful and wished the change to be made permanent you would come back with primary legislation?

Criminal Justice Committee

Risk Assessment in the Justice System

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Katy Clark

For the cases that have been looked at, have you asked for a breakdown of the offences that are involved in that cohort?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Katy Clark

You spoke about human rights considerations. I presume that, in particular, you are thinking about article 3 of the European convention on human rights and whether the requirements amount to “inhuman and degrading treatment”. Will you outline what you can do in your role to ensure that the Scottish Prison Service and, in particular, governors take proportionate action? How can more resources be put in to deal with the transparency issues that Jamie Greene spoke about, given that the Scottish Prison Service has raised systems issues, and so that there is an awareness in prisons of the importance of human rights considerations?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Katy Clark

We have been given information on how the powers have been used since October 2021. As the cabinet secretary knows, the buck stops with him. To what extent is he advised of the steps that have been taken so that he can give political oversight of the situation and, if he has concerns about how the legislation was being implemented, take action or express those concerns?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Katy Clark

Sure. So when the powers are used in a particular establishment, you are informed.

Criminal Justice Committee

Risk Assessment in the Justice System

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Katy Clark

Is it the case, therefore, that cases involving serious sexual offenders or individuals who have been involved in serious violence would be the kind that professionals would be asked to deal with first?

Criminal Justice Committee

Risk Assessment in the Justice System

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Katy Clark

You are asking professionals to look at their current and former case loads and make a judgment about any individuals that they have concerns about, and for those cases to be prioritised.