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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 July 2025
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Displaying 984 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

Right. If there are problems with prison capacity, will there not be pressure to try to reach as high a number as possible?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

I will not ask my next question, because I think that we are running out of time. I will just leave it.

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

I understand that you are a governor at the women’s prison at Stirling, Paula. Is that correct?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

Clearly, a lot of money has been spent on those facilities, and we need to ensure that they are properly utilised, that the women who are there really need to be there and that that is the appropriate place for them.

The proposal is fairly arbitrary with regard to the particular cohort of prisoners who will be considered. Phil, if the issue that we are looking at is how to cut prison numbers, I have to say that the committee is struggling to know what types of prisoners really should not be in jail and should be dealt with in another way. As a representative of prison officers, do you have a view on that? Do you feel that a proportion of prisoners really should not be in prison and should be elsewhere instead? How do we categorise who those people might be?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

You have all referred to lessons learned from Covid and to lists. Do you have a clear understanding of what types of prisoners are likely to be released? Do you consider that those prisoners will be the least risky and those that are most likely to not reoffend when they get out?

I will go to Sarah Armstrong first. I have heard everything that you have said about the long-term measures that are needed. However, if you were to go down that release path, do you think that the approach that is being taken is targeting the prisoners who are most likely to be appropriate for release?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

You will be aware of a huge amount of concern over many decades about the numbers of women whom we incarcerate in Scotland. The proposals are quite arbitrary, and they will affect a number of women prisoners—the cohort concerned is pretty arbitrary, however.

More broadly, from your experience, what would you say is the proportion of women in custody who you think really have to be there and who should not be dealt with in another way? If you prefer, could you say what proportion of women you feel would be better dealt with in a non-custodial way? I appreciate that, as you have said, you are dealing with some very difficult people, and I am not in any way underestimating the complexity of the issues, but is prison the right place for some of those women?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

I do not know whether Wendy Sinclair-Gieben might wish to comment on that. Is that something that you have considered?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

Prison is obviously a very expensive option. I fully understand that some people have to be there, and you have outlined some of them, but the committee is concerned about those individuals who could be dealt with in another—and likely cheaper—way. Psychiatric services, for example, might be a cheaper option. Is that something that your organisation is concerned about? Is the way in which we deal with individuals who go through the justice system a false economy?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

Does any of the other witnesses want to come in on that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

I have a factual question to ask. We have some figures in relation to the prison population. I will put this to Lynsey Smith, because you seem to have the most information about what the Government is planning and intends, from its dialogue with you. Do you have an understanding of the numbers in the cohort who could potentially be considered, which is prisoners sentenced to four years or less who have not been convicted of a domestic abuse or sexual offence? Do you have a broad understanding of what that figure is? I do not think that we have been provided with it.