Chamber and committees

There are arguments both ways as to whether that should be a parliamentary decision. In the evidence that we gathered through the consultation, there was a mix of views about whether the decision should be for ministers or for Parliament.

There has to be appropriate oversight and scrutiny of any changes that we make to zones, for exactly the reason that you gave about people potentially being criminalised as a result. People who could potentially be impacted by protest want us to respond in a timely manner to any changes in behaviour that might make implementation of a zone more difficult. There is a balance to be struck between sufficiently quick movement and appropriate oversight to ensure that we as parliamentarians are doing our job appropriately and ensuring appropriate consultation and scrutiny.

What I am endeavouring to get across is that there is a balance there and, as with the entirety of the bill, there are those representing competing interests on both sides who would say, “Go quicker,” or “Go slower.” There is a middle ground to be found, where we respond in an appropriate time but with appropriate consultation, too.

Whatever we do, there should be a level of consultation, because this is about extending zones into public land. There must be a level of consultation, particularly where private dwellings could be captured by any extension. I think that the minister gave an indication earlier that a level of engagement and consultation would take place for any extension.

On what happens inside private dwellings or churches, private conversations are not covered under the bill, as the minister said. Things would have to happen from those premises that could be heard or seen within the zones, as I am aware that the committee has heard in evidence.

In the previous session, there was a good airing of what signs would or would not be captured under the bill. I hope that the committee feels that it has had a full exploration of that.

It is essential that such premises are covered by the legislation, for exactly the reasons that Colin Poolman gave early in the series of evidence sessions. The bill could be undermined by an anti-abortion organisation buying a property within the zone, using it as its headquarters, projecting images from it on to services, putting up large signs in the garden or handing information over the wall, as happens in some of the states in the US that do not exempt private dwellings.

We have the balance right, but we will need to ensure that we communicate well with people who live in a zone and with religious organisations that have places of worship in a zone to ensure that they fully understand what we are doing with the bill.

To my mind, that would not be covered under the intent aspect of the provisions, and I do not think that it would come under the reckless aspect, either. Recklessly causing an offence is covered in quite a lot of law across the Scottish statute book. I do not believe that a priest simply attending to visit parishioners would be covered. Many of them also work in hospital chaplaincies, and I do not think that that would be covered, either.

During the previous evidence session, the minister outlined the need for consultation, and the timelines for that, when new services come online and when zones, potentially, need to be changed. In my consultation, we heard from people who support the bill that urgency is needed when those zones need to be changed, because, generally, they will change because something has happened—a behaviour has developed that has infringed the zone or has made it difficult for it to operate, and there is a need for an extension. I absolutely appreciate that some who support the bill also feel that there needs to be a level of parliamentary oversight to that. Again, I am more than happy to speak to members about that between stage 1 and stage 2, but there needs to be a balance between having the flexibility and ease to move quickly enough and having the appropriate oversight.

Yes.

That is similar to the question that Ross Greer asked about a minister going to a hospital to visit a parishioner and someone phoning the police just because he is there. That would not be enforced under the bill. Using the example that you gave, I would say that hospital chaplains have every right to be there. They are staff on the site, just as many others are.

That does not necessarily mean that people will not call the police in that situation, although I hope that they will not. Again, we might need to do a piece of awareness raising on that as part of the work on the bill. Even if we wrote such an exemption into the bill, that would not prevent someone from potentially misunderstanding and calling the police in the first place. That might open up a loophole that is not there currently, because those matters are not covered by the bill.

As we are coming to the end of this session, I will just say that I am more than happy to have a further in-depth conversation with Mr Sweeney if that would help allay any concerns. We can have those conversations between stage 1 and stage 2, if there is any further context that Mr Sweeney wishes to go over.

I do not know that any clinician who was striking would say, “Don’t go to your appointment.” I do not think that I have ever heard that from a trade union. Pickets are about working terms and conditions. Clinicians would never want their patients not to have access to the services that they are entitled to, because that would probably be against their job in the first place.

As I am sure that you are aware, that letter came in quite late yesterday, so I have not yet had a chance to have a chat about any of the potential ramifications of putting those principles into the bill, but I am certainly happy to have conversations between stages 1 and 2 about whether that would be appropriate.

I thank Karen Adam for securing this important members’ business debate. I, too, extend my gratitude to young carers across Scotland, including those who are joining us in the public gallery this afternoon, for the incredible work that they do in looking after their loved ones.

Yesterday, we celebrated young carers action day, and I commend the immense contribution that young carers make to our society when caring for their family and loved ones. As others have said, many young carers would not think twice about what it is that they do, but we need to think deeply about how we support them properly. Caring for someone should not be a barrier to equal opportunities in learning or participating in life, especially at a young age. Much too often, young carers’ lives are further complicated by education and employment systems that fail to identify and understand the diversity of their caring roles or to respond to their support needs. We need to address issues for young adult carers in that regard, too. For some, any good support that was provided at school stops when they leave, and those carers need to start again when they are at college or university or in the workplace.

Carers Trust research found that 59 per cent of young carers in Scotland care for more than 20 hours each week, with 12 per cent of them spending 50 hours or more providing unpaid care on a weekly basis. I welcome the launch by Carers Trust of the first-ever UK-wide covenant for young carers and young adult carers, which has been shaped by the views of more than 500 young carers. I thank Carers Trust for allowing me to attend the launch of the covenant earlier this week, and I encourage everyone in the chamber to sign up to it.

We heard from young carers from across the UK about their experience and what they want to see for young and young adult carers. The session was led by young carers, who did a wonderful job of articulating not only their experience but the experience that they had gathered from others. They told us that young carers need lasting and meaningful change. We must ensure that they remain at the forefront of policy development and have access to the support that they are entitled to and deserve. In Scotland, they must have a fair chance to prosper in all aspects of their lives so that they can achieve their full potential and secure a fair future.

Karen Adam is correct to say that we need to provide opportunities for those young people to be young people. I have been hugely privileged to attend the young carers festival, which allows young carers to take a break from their caring responsibilities and provides them with a space to see friends and have their voices heard.

There was also an opportunity to ask questions of MSPs, and I was struck by the number of issues that young carers wanted to ask me about. I was totally prepared for questions about caring and access to services, but many of them were asking questions about other issues completely unrelated to their caring responsibilities that they were passionate about. It struck me that that is actually what the young carers festival is partly about: allowing young people to get into things that interest them. It was an enlightening experience, even if the young carers absolutely put me through my paces and challenged my policy knowledge. If anyone here gets the chance to go to the festival, they absolutely should.

I will take this opportunity to shine a light on some of the incredible work that is going on across central Scotland that is aimed at benefiting young carers. At the Falkirk and Clackmannanshire carers centre, the organisation offers support tailored to the needs of young carers aged from eight to 18. That includes a support group, which provides monthly sessions that give young carers a rest from their caring responsibilities and a chance to connect with peers who understand their experiences.

In North and South Lanarkshire, young carers are dedicated to supporting the experiences of other young carers across the region. Their mission involves raising awareness and identifying and offering direct support to those who care for family members with illness or disability, including those who care for parents with mental health or substance abuse issues.

I extend my very best wishes to all those who are involved in this year’s young carers action day in their endeavours. Young carers action day serves as an important reminder of the invaluable contributions that young carers make to our communities and to their families, and of the urgent need for support and recognition of their vital role. Together we must amplify their voices, champion their rights and work tirelessly towards a more inclusive and supportive society, in which every young carer feels valued and empowered.