Chamber and committees

That completes our consideration of the affirmative instrument. I thank the cabinet secretary and her official for attending this morning.

That concludes the committee’s formal business in public this morning.

Under our second agenda item, we will take evidence on an affirmative Scottish statutory instrument. I refer members to paper 1. I welcome to the meeting Shirley-Anne Somerville, Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and Simon Stockwell, head of the family law policy unit of the Scottish Government.

I invite the cabinet secretary to speak to the instrument.

Good morning, and welcome to the 14th meeting in 2023, in session 6, of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee. We have received no apologies.

Our first agenda item is a decision on taking business in private. Do members agree to take in private item 4, which is consideration of our draft annual report, and item 5, which is discussion of our future work programme?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you, cabinet secretary. No member of the committee has indicated that they wish to ask questions or make comments, so we will move straight to agenda item 3, which is formal consideration of the motion for approval of the affirmative instrument. I invite the minister to move motion S6M-08951.

Motion moved,

That the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee recommends that the Forced Marriage etc. (Protection and Jurisdiction) (Scotland) Act 2011 (Application to Civil Partnerships and Consequential Provision) Order 2023 [draft] be approved.—[Shirley-Anne Somerville]

Motion agreed to.

I invite the committee to delegate to me the publication of a short factual report on our deliberation on the affirmative SSI that we have considered today. Do members agree to do so?

Members indicated agreement.

I thank Mr Kerr for that intervention. I absolutely acknowledged that violence in schools was a problem. However, I also wish to remind members that the vast majority of our classrooms are happy learning environments. We must remember that.

The problem of violence in schools is not only a Scotland-wide problem; similar trends are being seen in England and Wales, and across the world, as a side effect of the measures that were necessary during lockdown. We must deal with the additional challenges that have come down the line. If we do not get this right, as well as letting down our current dedicated teachers, we risk stifling an entire generation of young people, who need not only our love and care but clear boundaries, consistency and support.

I hope to offer some constructive suggestions based on my experience and the experiences of people who are still working in the profession. The feedback that I am getting is that some children who have returned to full-time physical attendance at school are seriously struggling to get back into school routines. For some, that has resulted in issues with poor behaviour. Unfortunately, on occasion, it has resulted in horrendous incidents, which colleagues have mentioned, when others have been made victims and have faced terrible harms. It is understandable that any parent of any child who went through that would be furious—sickened, even.

In my view, when a bullying incident occurs, there are at least two victims—the bully and the bullied. I have yet to meet a happy child who misbehaves, who picks on others, who acts out or who disrupts class. I welcome the Conservatives accepting that a summit would be a better place to bring everyone together to secure the support that is required: support for the pupils who are the victims; support for teachers who are also victims; support for children with their behavioural challenges; and, importantly, support for the parents of those children as well. I have yet to meet a parent or a household member who is falling short in meeting a child’s needs who is not struggling severely in other areas of their lives, such as with finances, bereavement or adverse childhood experiences, which inevitably have an impact.

Mental health support is the key element to reaching a solution. Child psychologists, among other professionals, are well placed to identify trauma and offer solutions, perhaps even working with entire family units. I would be grateful to know more about what plans the Scottish Government has to extend mental health support in our schools to children with behavioural issues, as well as those who have been victims of bullying or violence, and, of course, their families.

I need to press on.

I want to talk about the reporting of incidents and their causes. I agree that there must be a national framework through which we can better understand the data around incidents. However, I would stress that the current systems that are in place can be—and are—laborious and time consuming, and they can take teachers away from the jobs that they are trained to do. I would be grateful if, in summing up, the minister could provide an assurance that that will be discussed with the teaching profession and trade unions to find solutions that give us an accurate picture of classroom and playground behaviour but streamline the reporting procedure, allowing teachers to do their job.

We need to talk about trigger thresholds. If a teacher is facing consistent issues in the classroom, a local authority can step in and offer targeted support. In my view, the trigger threshold must be much earlier than it is currently.

As I mentioned, counselling and support should be consistently provided to the teacher and pupils involved, and, where possible, their families.

All behaviours are forms of communication, and teachers are well-trained professionals who know how to recognise when a child is in distress. What they need support with is around having that wider conversation about how to accommodate and deal with children’s support needs, working with school policies on positive relationships that are based on mutual respect.

I am running out of time, but I ask you to indulge me, Presiding Officer. There is a poem by Dorothy Law Nolte about how a child lives. The bit that struck me was this:

“If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
If a child lives with hostility, he learns to fight.”

It is up to us to come up with the solutions. The poem goes on:

“If a child lives with fairness, he learns justice.
If a child lives with security, he learns to have faith.”

We need to have faith in a secure education system where everyone is free to thrive.

I refer to my entry in the register of members’ interests. As a former primary school teacher, I retain my passion for education, and I visit schools across my constituency almost every week. I like to know what is going on in the system because it matters to young people and to all of us in this place and beyond. I acknowledge that violence in schools is a problem—I will not deny that, and I hope that nobody here would do so—so I welcome the debate.

There has been an uptick in poor behaviour in our schools since lockdown, and that has created serious challenges. However, the reality is nothing like the lawless out-of-control environment that has been portrayed by some Opposition members. The vast majority of our classrooms are happy learning environments that are supported by a rights-respecting agenda.

That is helpful. I was thinking about the right to work, which not all asylum seekers and refugees have.

Dr Webster, you talked about the participatory process, and I would like to start off by discussing that a little bit further and drilling into it. It would be interesting to hear how you think the participatory process should be approached. I listened carefully to Professor Miller on the cross-cutting issues, including putting lived experience at the heart of all this. I come to you first, Professor Miller, and then I will bring in your colleagues.