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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 July 2025
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Displaying 1502 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 November 2023

Kaukab Stewart

I bring in Paul O’Kane.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 November 2023

Kaukab Stewart

Yes, as is the usual experience.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 November 2023

Kaukab Stewart

That is interesting. Earlier this morning, the committee heard about the situation in which a citizen might want to sue the Government. However, what about the consumer—the person on the street—who might want to sue their lawyer because they have not received a good service? What I have heard, albeit anecdotally—but also through constituency work, because people know that the committee is dealing with this so they come to talk to me—is that some people have not had good experiences. They feel that they are up against a whole system and that that system looks after itself. Did you speak to individuals or look at such casework? Can you give us an example of that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 November 2023

Kaukab Stewart

Thank you for that. The diagrams were exceptionally helpful and I say that not just as a teacher who loves diagrams. [Laughter.] They do illustrate things.

I will ask for clarification on a few points. The diagram of the current regulatory framework says that the

“Scottish ministers have duty to consult Lord President”.

What does that involve? Is that a legal duty to consult and if so, on what, for example? How do you know that ministers have consulted? Does that transfer into decisions? I am interested in what power ministers have at the moment.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 November 2023

Kaukab Stewart

Thank you very much. I will kick off the questions; my colleagues will then come in.

Lady Dorrian, you mentioned the role of the Lord President. I want to give you an opportunity to unpick that a little bit. Can you give us some practical examples of the role of the Lord President and the implications of the bill for what the Lord President would or would not be able to do?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 November 2023

Kaukab Stewart

The minister has indicated that amendments will be lodged that should allay some of the concerns that have been robustly raised, but we do not know what those amendments will be. In that wriggle room, would either of you like to give me an indication of what those amendments could be that would address your concerns?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 November 2023

Kaukab Stewart

Fair enough.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 November 2023

Kaukab Stewart

I have been listening really carefully and would like to come back on a few points. I would like to generate more discussion about the consumer’s perspective, because we have taken lots of evidence on the lawyer’s point of view and every other view. Can you give us some insight into how the consumer’s point of view informed your report, whether your views have developed on that and whether the consumer is served well by the bill in its current state?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 November 2023

Kaukab Stewart

I have a final question before I bring Karen Adam in on that theme. I am interested in how the Lord President takes the views of consumers into account when he is carrying out his regulatory functions. For example, are there any formal processes to ensure that consumer views are considered in addition to the views of the legal profession?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 November 2023

Kaukab Stewart

Good morning, and welcome to the 25th meeting in 2023 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee. We have no apologies this morning.

Our first agenda item is our fifth evidence session on the Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill. We have two panels of witnesses this morning. We are privileged to welcome senators of the College of Justice for our first panel. The Rt Hon Lady Dorrian is the Lord Justice Clerk, who is the second most senior judge in Scotland. She was appointed as a temporary judge in 2002, and she became a judge in the supreme courts in 2005. She was appointed Lord Justice Clerk in 2016. She sits in the inner house of the Court of Session, and she is the president of the second division of the inner house.

The honourable Lord Ericht was appointed as a judge of the supreme courts in 2016. He sits in the outer house of the Court of Session and also presides over trials in the High Court of Justiciary. He is also a chair of the United Kingdom Competition Appeal Tribunal.

We are grateful to both of you for giving up your time to speak to us today.

We are aware of the concerns that have been expressed by the senior judiciary with regard to the bill in response to our call for views and in correspondence with the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee. We will seek to explore those concerns in depth this morning.

We have also noted the DPLR Committee’s report, which was published last Thursday, and we have written to the Minister for Victims and Community Safety to seek more detail from her on what impact any potential changes to the bill might have and whether they would alleviate and address the concerns that have been expressed.

We expect Oliver Mundell from the DPLR Committee to attend today’s meeting as soon as his committee has concluded its business.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2, and I invite Lady Dorrian to provide an opening statement on behalf of the senators of the College of Justice.