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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 12 July 2025
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Displaying 692 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

Thank you for the intervention. If I understand you correctly, my response is that the consultation has been happening from the beginning. It has got the bill to this point, and it has taken us through the scrutiny period in the Scottish Parliament, so it is not as though consultation—

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

I will respond once we have been through the amendments, convener.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

Apologies for omitting that—it slipped my mind—but I do not support that aspect of the proposals, either. There are already well-established review processes inherent in NatureScot’s operations, and NatureScot is best placed to take a view, not Scottish ministers. Referring back to my conversation with Rachael Hamilton, the expertise lies with NatureScot and not with me.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

Ariane Burgess’s melodic amendments 2, 4, 6, 8 and 14 remove the exception at section 6 from the bill with the effect that it would be unlawful to use a dog to search for or flush a wild mammal for the purpose of providing quarry for falconry, game shooting or deer stalking.

Section 6 covers quite a wide range of recreational activities that make a significant contribution to the rural economy. They all may use dogs at some time to search for or flush wild mammals for the purpose of shooting or, in the case of falconry, killing by a bird of prey, and it is therefore right that they come within the scope of the bill and be regulated as other uses of dogs in hunting in the countryside will be. That consistency is important to the bill. However, they are lawful activities and the purpose of the bill is to ensure that, when dogs are used, they are used in a way that protects wild mammals’ welfare. It is not to ban otherwise permitted and lawful activities.

Mercedes Villalba made a comment about the Government seeking to avoid a row. That is not the case at all. It is about us, as the Executive, and the Parliament, as the legislature, sticking within the remit of what is intended, has been consulted on and is expected from the bill. Therefore, I cannot support amendments 2, 4, 6, 8 and 14.

Amendments 132, 134, 136, 138 and 142, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, would insert a new section after section 6 that would allow for the use of any number of dogs for the purpose of rough shooting.

Rachael Hamilton is right that there has been a great deal of exchange on rough shooting. I spoke about it last week. I reiterate that the bill allows for the majority of permutations of rough shooting to continue. Some events might need to adapt, as we discussed last week, usually by making a minimal change to how they undertake their activities. Minimal change is justified when set against the risk of creating a new loophole that would enable people to take as many dogs as they like, say that they were rough shooting and, in turn, besmirch the legitimate activity of rough shooting.

Equally, as I explained last week, the consistency of the bill is a strength and we could not justify creating an exemption for regulation of rough shooting—not an unimportant activity but, in essence, a recreational one—when, for example, farmers will have to change their behaviour and comply when seeking to protect their livestock or undertaking other essential purposes, such as environmental management.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

I take on board the point. We discussed the issue a great deal last week, and in other exchanges. The concern about rough shooting becoming a cover for unlawful activity in the bill is one important reason why it needs to be included and why we cannot create an exception for it. I have also spoken about the other reasons. We cannot consistently ask farmers, on the one hand, to comply with regulations when they are seeking to protect their livestock, with very serious economic implications, while on the other hand not asking those who are involved in a recreational activity to comply with the same regulations. That would be unjustified. There is a combination of reasons why we cannot allow such an exception to be made.

Rachael Hamilton spoke of the perceived risk of “vexatious” claims. As I said last week, I understand that, but I do not think that we can allow any perceived risk of such claims to facilitate something that would, in the case of an exemption for rough shooting, significantly undermine the bill. However, I said last week that I would be content to work with the shooting industry on post-legislative guidance in order to try to manage down the risk of vexatious claims. I continue to consider how best to formulate the bill and whether improvements can be made to clarify our position, which I have explained. However, for the reasons that I have stated, I cannot support these amendments.

Amendments 133, 135, 137, 139 and 143 would create a new section and exception for field trials. Much of the reasoning here is the same as for the amendments on rough shooting. Again, we have discussed at length how rough shooting and field trials where mammals are pursued are included within, but can continue under, the bill. It does not actually matter how many dogs are present at the event as a whole or whether a dog is simultaneously carrying out a separate searching and flushing or retrieving activity. Provided that no more than two dogs ever join to find and flush quarry together, there is no reason to think that field trials are not compatible with the bill as it is currently drafted or that they could not continue.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

Yes, I am happy to.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

I have.

I move amendment 148.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

I am more than happy to keep talking to you about that, but my view today, and the reason why I will not support the proposal as formulated, is that review procedures are already very much built into the processes. That is within NatureScot, but I expect it could ultimately come under judicial review—I look to my legal colleagues on that. Review processes are available right up to judicial review, and I do not think that bringing those issues in house within the Scottish Government would be helpful.

I hope that that clarifies the point.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

I have just explained that that is not the case. The individuals who were responsible for the breach of conditions on the ground would be responsible.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

I cannot commit today to its being a public register. I have to consider what can be published within the scope of the GDPR.