Chamber and committees

Our main item of business this morning is an evidence session on refugees and asylum seekers. The committee has been holding some stand-alone evidence sessions to explore the breadth of its remit. We will use the evidence heard during these meetings to begin to establish priorities for our work programme over the parliamentary session. Given that this topic is also of interest to the Equalities and Human Rights Committee, we invited members of that committee to join today’s meeting. In addition to Pam Duncan-Glancy, who is a member of both committees, I welcome to our meeting Pam Gosal MSP, who is joining us remotely.

I welcome our panel of witnesses, who are also joining us remotely: Andrew Morrison, chief officer, migration, population and diversity team, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities; Pat Togher, assistant chief officer, public health protection complex needs, Glasgow city health and social care partnership; Alistair Dinnie, refugee and migration programme manager, City of Edinburgh Council; Calum Maciver, director of communities, Western Isles Council; and Councillor Susan Aitken, who is leader of Glasgow City Council.

I have a few housekeeping points before we start. Please allow our broadcasting colleagues a few seconds to turn on your microphones before you start to speak. If you are joining us remotely and wish to come in on a question, you can indicate that by typing an R in the dialogue box in BlueJeans or simply by a show of the hand if that is not working. I will try to keep my eyes on everyone.

Witnesses, do not feel that you have to answer every question. There are quite a few of you today. It is okay if you do not have anything new to add to what has been said by others. You are also welcome to follow up in writing after the meeting on any points that you think need to be clarified or that have not been covered, or to supply further information on any points that have been raised. I invite members to direct their questions to particular witnesses because we have a lot to get through this morning.

Natalie Don, who is joining us remotely, will start with questions on theme 1.

Good morning and welcome to the sixth meeting of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. Apologies have been received from Foysol Choudhury.

Our first item of business is a decision to take items 3 and 4 in private. Are we all agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

I am not seeing anything in the chat.

I will hand back to Pam Duncan-Glancy, who has a question.

I welcome David Strang to his role.

We know that there are strong links between poverty, deprivation, inequalities and problem drug use. In Scotland, we can trace that back to the economic policies of the 1980s. The people who grew up during that period, who are now in their late 40s and early 50s—my age cohort—and who live in deprived areas have the highest risk of drug deaths. How crucial is the Scottish Government’s anti-poverty work to tackling the drug deaths crisis, and do you recognise the need to work across policy areas and Government departments, local authorities and the third sector? You have already touched on that a bit, but I want to gather your thoughts on that area.

We heard from Minister Kit Malthouse that the UK Government is still not convinced about the use of safer consumption facilities for public health purposes. What is your feeling about that? In my experience, such facilities are a gateway for people to access services. People who might be afraid to come forward or reach out in other ways can be signposted in a setting where they are actually looked after and kept safe—and, hopefully, kept alive if something terrible happens. What are your thoughts on the use of safer consumption facilities as a public health and safety measure within the basket of measures that we are convening?

As a member of the Scotland prevention review group, I understand the clear need to prevent homelessness in the first place, and I am glad to see that a public consultation is under way on the prevention duties. Minister, do you, like me, recognise the need for wider public bodies to have a duty to ask and to act when it comes to preventing homelessness, and to work across departments and sectors to support individuals and families? How do you see such an approach helping to reduce drug deaths and the devastation that they cause?

Thank you for that answer. I want to revisit an issue that my colleague Miles Briggs brought up: stigma. That is a huge force that drives people away from services.

I previously worked for Scottish Women’s Aid, in support of women fleeing domestic abuse. Many faced addiction issues that were born of self-medication. They faced stigma and the fear of losing the custody of their children not only due to the abuser’s actions but due to bringing their addiction to light—that is, their letting it be known that they had such an addiction. That fear was palpable. How can we address stigma and the harm that it causes? Surely a true public health approach must not seek to retraumatise or stigmatise.

We can also think about people who are stopped for simple possession and then find themselves incarcerated for a time. Again, a true public health approach should take a different path. Does the Drug Deaths Taskforce believe that as well?

What are your views on a community justice or smart justice approach? Do you see that as being soft-touch justice or as a crucial part of how we tackle the crisis that we are facing?

Good morning, minister. Following on from my colleague Gillian Mackay’s questions, I note the argument that the high drug deaths rate in Scotland is partly a delayed health effect of circumstances in the 1980s. How should current anti-poverty policies respond to that, and do we need more of an emphasis on whole-community regeneration with a public health and wellbeing approach right in the heart of our communities to reduce stigma and ensure that everyone gets support, including those experiencing problem drug use?