Chamber and committees

The disorder and thuggery that occurred on and around bonfire night, which involved not just fireworks and pyrotechnics but bricks and even petrol bombs, was sickening. I express my heartfelt thanks to our emergency services for their dedication and bravery in working in appalling situations to keep our communities as safe as possible.

I welcome the fact that Police Scotland has made it clear that investigations are on-going and that it aims to bring the culprits to justice. I urge any member of the public who has relevant information to get in touch with the police, either directly or anonymously through Crimestoppers.

Although I associate myself with Sue Webber’s comments on the intolerable behaviour that we saw, at this point in time we have only a resource spending review in front of us; we do not have a budget set. I will keep a close eye on the situation, because our communities cannot endure what we saw last weekend. We need to have in place enough resources to do the early intervention and preventative work that we need to do in communities where there is multiple deprivation and we see a rise in such cases.

I will get back to the member on the issue.

I thank Katy Clark for her question and her welcome.

There is no equivocation on the part of the Scottish Government. Where there is offending of the type that has been seen over recent days, we will fully support Police Scotland in pursuing investigations, and, where sufficient evidence is obtained, using its powers appropriately to make arrests and bring charges.

It is difficult to get an entirely comprehensive picture of convictions because of the range of common-law and statutory offences that may be relevant.

This is also a matter for the courts, and it would be wrong of ministers to criticise or second-guess the sentences that the courts impose, as only the courts have all the weighted evidence in front of them. I am clear, however, that the courts have extensive sentencing powers in this area, under a range of common-law as well as statutory provisions, and I will be keeping a close eye on how things develop.

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on how it is working with colleagues in local government, as part of its Covid recovery strategy, to support Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley’s recovery from Covid-19. (S6O-01478)

What impact will the delay to the United Kingdom Government’s fiscal statement have on the Scottish Government’s ability to plan ahead in terms of the support that it can provide to local government, particularly in the context of the Tory Government’s trashing of the UK economy—a failure for which it is now making people pay the price through its new wave of impending austerity cuts, which will slash public services and cut incomes? Does the cabinet secretary agree that independence is the only way to keep Scotland safe from the damaging Tory cuts and long-term economic decline?

Does the member agree that the best and swiftest early intervention in that regard would be to provide a welfare state that addresses poverty at source as opposed to having to mitigate it?

Will the member take an intervention?

I thank my colleague Siobhian Brown for bringing the debate to the chamber. We have had many conversations about the menopause during our long journeys back to Ayrshire every week.

My name is Elena Whitham and I am menopausal. Being menopausal is not in any way the sum of my existence, but some days it sure feels that way. It could be sweating bullets in the chamber—not from any Opposition interventions, but from some confounded internal combustion engine that arbitrarily decides to power up the flame-throwers, as it did during the earlier debate—or the ever-present brain fog that means that I call my children by the dog’s name or put the remote control in the freezer. Sometimes, it takes all of the women in my office to complete a sentence—we help one another out, as women do—or there is a sudden panic as my haywire menstrual cycle decides it is tsunami season and my Mooncup literally runneth over.

Whether it is when I yelp when my husband reaches out to hold my hand during a walk and my sore finger joints squeal under his embrace, or, yet again, as I decide to close my ever-so-tired eyes on the train to Parliament, only to be jolted awake by some fellow passenger who is rudely snoring without a care in the world, and then realising that it is me—with my exhaustion being further underlined by the wee trail of slavers that are escaping from my slack jaw—sometimes it literally feels like I have lost myself somewhere between the ages of 46 and 48. It feels like I am wading through treacle trying to figure out who I am—as Pam Gosal talked about—while trying to juggle work, a neurodivergent teenager and husband, a needy Jack Russell and a 20-something-year-old son who sometimes just needs his mammy to make his work’s piece, all at a time when my multitasking skills have all but deserted me.

“Help ma boab,” I hear members say, “she needs pit doon.” Nah—all I needed was a box of bioidentical HRT patches, and I have the battle scars to prove it.

My menopause started during the pandemic and it coincided with my getting a really heavy dose of the delta variant, which led to questions over whether it was long Covid. I was also diagnosed with a vitamin B deficiency, some of the symptoms of which mirror the menopause and long Covid. I had to keep battling to get the hormone replacement that my body was so evidently crying out for.

All women should be well aware of those symptoms. We need to communicate them more widely, with posters everywhere that say, “If this is happening to you, it might be the menopause.”

I bought a book by the amazing journalist Kate Muir, “Everything You Need to Know About Menopause (But Were Too Afraid to Ask)”—other books on menopause are available—and it literally changed my life. While reading it in bed, I kept exclaiming, “That’s just like me,” while poking my husband as he tried to read beside me. I finally felt empowered, alive and equipped with the knowledge that I needed to once again ask my GP for support.

Please bear in mind that I was a young mum at the time of the discredited measles, mumps and rubella and HRT studies, and I still bear the scars from them. I remember vowing that I would never take HRT; I would dure it out. I was not going to put myself at risk. It is only natural, right? No—I was wrong. Each woman will experience their own version of menopause and all options should be available to each and every one of us.

HRT can protect against osteoporosis, dementia, heart disease and stroke. If we care enough to make sure that women are supported as they move into the menopause, HRT can protect our wellbeing and relationships, and our jobs can be saved. Heaven forfend that we should place importance on our sex lives and ask for testosterone gel, which is currently woefully underprescribed in Scotland. It is funny that it does not have the same traction as those wee blue pills that help men with erectile dysfunction. Something that more than half of the world’s population experiences should not be left to chance and GPs with scant training.

I have a keen focus on social justice, and, as is the case with many health concerns, there are clear health inequalities when it comes to menopause. Women in deprived areas tend to be prescribed less HRT, and, when they get a prescription, they tend to get the more dangerous oral variety, which will interact with comorbidities that they must face, leading to poorer outcomes. That can and must change, and I would like to hear how the minister thinks that the women’s health plan will positively influence better outcomes for women who are not always able to navigate a system that is designed without them at its heart.

Miles Briggs mentioned young parents. Does he agree that the UK Government’s Department for Work and Pensions policy on how young parents under 25 are treated in respect of their welfare provision exacerbates the poverty that those young parents face?

As convener of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee, I am pleased to open the debate on the committee’s important report on low income and debt.

YouGov research that was commissioned by Citizens Advice Scotland found that more than 600,000 people have encountered new debt problems during the pandemic, either getting into debt for the first time or seeing existing debt get worse. With the cost crisis, it is likely that we will see that number grow exponentially.

As the costs of basics rise sharply and energy prices skyrocket, households across the country are limiting their use of essentials and suffering a significant decline in their mental and physical wellbeing. People are desperately worried about the future, and we, as a committee, share their concerns. Spiralling costs will push an increasing number of people into debt because they simply do not have enough money to pay for all basic outgoings and bills.

As a committee, we set out to explore the specific challenges that people with low incomes face in accessing support and finding solutions to their debt situation. We wanted to find out what their key challenges are and how we could help them. What more could be done?

Our starting point for the work was a focus group with people who are experiencing debt problems. We wanted their experience to be at the heart of the inquiry and to inform the scope of our work. Their testimony shaped the questions that we posed in our call for views and the committee’s subsequent evidence-taking sessions.

What a stark picture those people painted. Despite receiving advice on social security entitlement and other forms of income maximisation, many people on low incomes simply did not have enough money to meet essential living costs. They were stuck in an inevitable cycle of debt, operating with deficit budgets, and there was often no obvious way out. Bankruptcy might be a short-term solution for some, but many people rely on money advisers spending significant time trying to negotiate reduced payments with public sector creditors or access charitable support, with the sole aim of enabling their clients to have enough money to live.

Participants from our original focus group formed our panel of experts by experience. The panel made recommendations to the committee on how things could be improved, which fed directly into the committee’s report. For us, this was about empowering people not just to tell us their story but to be involved in shaping change. The report title, “Robbing Peter to pay Paul: Low income and the debt trap”, is taken from a comment from one of our experts by experience.

I thank everyone who gave evidence to the committee and I particularly thank our experts by experience, who diligently engaged with us throughout our work. That would not have been possible without the organisations that supported them—the committee extends its sincere thanks to them all.

During this inquiry we were told:

“Problem debt has a particular stigma and shame attached to it that leaves people feeling trapped, isolated, unable to sleep. Many of these worries are related to wider stigma around poverty.”

Our inquiry was far reaching, and our recommendations span a number of different Scottish Government portfolios as well as local government and United Kingdom Government responsibilities. We looked at the school meals debt that is owed to schools, council tax debt, the advice sector, the availability of information and support, early intervention and prevention, mental health, and statutory debt solutions such as bankruptcy. I hope that my colleagues will touch on a range of those areas today.

In my remaining time, I will focus on just two of the key areas that the committee explored: public sector debt and money advice.

When we think of debt, we often think of the debt that is owed to private businesses, such as credit card debt and loans. Increasingly, we might think of debt as a result of fuel costs. We might not think so quickly about the role that the public sector plays in debt in areas such as social housing, benefit deductions, council tax, care charges and school charges.

We were told that the debt that is owed to public bodies is increasing as people struggle to pay bills. Collection of such debt can be quicker and harsher than collection from private creditors. Failure to pay council tax can result in enforcement action. CAS highlighted that council tax debt is one of the biggest debts that bureaux see. Local authorities tend to favour bank arrestments as a way of enforcing payment, which means that money can be seized from people’s bank accounts.

Steps have been taken to bring greater consistency to local authority debt collection, but we heard that that effort is not always felt on the ground. We were concerned to hear that public sector processes are not always sensitive enough to individual circumstances. Our experts by experience stressed that compassion must be built into processes and services. We cannot have rigid, faceless services that assume that the debtor is always wrong—that makes the whole experience worse and increases anxiety.

We need a fundamental change in attitude from the front-line services that are dealing with people in debt. The public sector should aim to lead best practice, by handling debt in a fairer and more considerate way. Debt recovery should be done proportionately, based on individual circumstances. People should be treated with compassion.

We were concerned to hear that people are sometimes failed by clunky systems that are not connected or easy to use. People must take it on themselves to navigate complex systems to get the support to which they are entitled—often at a time when they have limited emotional and financial capacity to do that. The burden of responsibility falls too often on the individual. That theme often emerges in our committee work.

Before I turn to the role of the free money advice sector, I want to touch on school meals, which is another important area in which quick action could be taken. Free school meal provision should be increased and rolled out at pace, and school meals debt should be written off. That is already happening in some but not all councils. As I said during my debate on challenge poverty week, weans need to eat.

Last but by no means least, I turn to the advice sector and the people across Scotland who are working tirelessly to help people who are existing in truly desperate circumstances. Money advisers are doing a hugely difficult but important job in helping people to navigate their finances—and advisers might be suffering from their own financial and wellbeing challenges in the process. Debt advisers told us that they are firefighting and hanging on by their fingertips. They are burned out by demand for their services, the complexity of cases and the lack of available options to resolve people’s problems. Witnesses raised issues around awareness of advice services, stigma around seeking help, channel choice and digital exclusion, as well as funding concerns.

Christians Against Poverty shared with us an example of one of the many people whom it supports through its debt advice. The client is coming to the end of a minimal asset process bankruptcy and their sole income is social security benefits. They suffer from depression, anxiety and panic attacks. Once they have been discharged from bankruptcy, they will have £8.55 a week to live on for food and all household items. Living on a budget of £8.55 is not sustainable, and the very tragic reality is that that individual will fall back into problem debt.

Debt advisers highlighted that many low-income households are

“the most prudent money managers you will ever come across. They know where every penny goes and can account for every part of their income. The problem is that the income is simply not enough to cover the costs.”

We must continue to use all available avenues to tackle poverty and resulting debt issues, and we must take a person-centred approach.

I am proud of the committee’s inquiry and the work that it has undertaken to shine a light on the complex circumstances that lead people to become indebted and their struggle to find solutions to that debt. The systemic and interlinking challenges of tackling poverty were interwoven in that work. We made a wide range of recommendations that we think could make a real difference to people who are the most marginalised and overwhelmed by their debt—those whose incomes are so low that there can seem no feasible way to pay off debt and no way out of the debt trap.

I hope that the Scottish Government, the UK Government and local authorities recognise the compelling evidence received by the committee on these issues and work together to enact much-needed collective change.

On behalf of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee, I move,

That the Parliament notes the conclusions and recommendations contained in the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s 8th Report, 2022 (Session 6): Robbing Peter to pay Paul: Low income and the debt trap (SP Paper 211).

I note that I did all of that while having a menopausal hot flush. Yes—go me! [Applause.]