—the last meeting that I had with the chairman and the regular meetings that have taken place with my senior officials, who have attended every board meeting since it became apparent that there was a problem at Historic Environment Scotland—

I think that the committee is aware that the accountable officer is the chief executive of Historic Environment Scotland. The committee will be aware that there have been periods when the chief executive has not been in post. Mr Kerr will be aware that we are straying into HR territory here, so I need to be cautious about how I address these matters.

My officials were seized of the matter when it became clear that the chief executive officer might not be returning to work. At various stages there have been interactions with the board to explore whether there should be an interim accountable officer in place, but given that it has not been clear over recent months exactly when the chief executive might return to office—at various stages it was thought that she might—the progress of such a replacement has not been taken forward by the board of Historic Environment Scotland.

We are now in a position where the chief executive is fulfilling her responsibilities as accountable officer back at work. That is appropriate. I have wanted to satisfy myself that at no stage have there been any financial decisions that needed sign-off by the accountable officer that could not be proceeded with or needed to be proceeded with in a different way, and that is indeed the case.

I do not know whether Kenneth Hogg wants to add anything on the accountable officer question. I appreciate why it is an important question, but I wish Mr Kerr and the committee to be assured that we have been very involved in making sure that, were there to be any protracted issue with the accountable officer position, it could be remedied. As I have already pointed out, the accountable officer, who is the chief executive, is fulfilling the responsibilities now.

They would be right to be concerned if the meetings had not been attended, but they were attended and I was fully informed about what proceeded at them—

You did not let me finish the sentence, Mr Halcro Johnston.

The normal custom and practice for the cabinet secretary is to meet with the chief executives of organisations, and I have done that on a number of occasions.

It is important for the public—who might, understandably, not be aware—to know that the interrelationship with non-departmental public bodies is through what is known as the sponsorship team within the civil service. The appropriate officials attended every single meeting—at my request—to make sure that we were best informed about things. The amount of interaction that has taken place between the Scottish Government in my area of responsibility and Historic Environment Scotland is—I could not even guess what the level of engagement is with Historic Environment Scotland relative to other non-departmental public bodies. We are extremely seized of the matter.

I think that the important relationship that I have had, presently and in the past, is with the chief executive of the organisation in question. I have that relationship with the current chief executive officer and, as I said in answer to Mr Kerr, I have met a number of times with the incoming chair of Historic Environment Scotland. As I have also said, if the board ever wished me to come along and attend a meeting, I would be content to do so. However, the appropriate level of interaction for my position is with the chief executive of this or any other organisation, and I must satisfy myself that my officials are dealing with the other levels of the organisation, so that we are best informed.

We now find ourselves at a really important inflection point for Historic Environment Scotland. Not only has a new chief executive been brought into the organisation, but a new chair and new board members have been brought into the organisation, and a new chief operating officer will be brought into the organisation. All of that has taken place with the Scottish Government playing the appropriate role in making it happen.

Would I have wished for the past leadership of Historic Environment Scotland to have dealt with all the issues? Absolutely. Now is, unfortunately, the time that others need to do so.

I have not requested to meet the board, because—

Yes, I am totally open to attending such a meeting, but I think that Mr Bibby will appreciate that my primary focus is to support Sir Mark in the most appropriate way as he takes forward new leadership in Historic Environment Scotland. I look forward to being apprised by him of the changes that are taking place in terms of the on-going investigations. As the board changes, of course, no doubt the new members of the board, together with those remaining from the old board, will want to reflect on what has transpired at Historic Environment Scotland.

There is a wider point that emanates from Mr Bibby’s question: what are the learnings about how such a situation could come about in the first place, in order to ensure that such a thing never happens again? The range of leadership issues at Historic Environment Scotland are extremely serious, and that concerns us all.

As the board better understands and comes to terms with what has transpired and the solutions to deal with the issues, I certainly would want to be advised by it so that we can make sure that those learnings are available right across the public sector landscape for arm’s-length organisations.

I do not think that I have any meetings at the present time. However, as I have always said, I am open to dialogue with trade unions in any circumstance. I am aware that the trade unions have been involved in relation to some of the internal matters, which, as Mr Bibby will appreciate, I cannot go into in any level of detail. The trade unions’ locus, as I understand it, is in relation to their members as part of the staff team at Historic Environment Scotland.

I am not aware of any request for a meeting with the unions. They will appreciate that on these HR issues the locus is not mine. Mr Bibby will understand that. I do not want to give him the impression that I am against meeting with trade unions, especially where there are distressed circumstances. I am not against that, if it is felt that it is appropriate. However, there has never been a suggestion from them that they would wish to meet me, given that I do not have that direct locus in the issues that they are raising.

I want to give Mr Brown total assurance about my personal interest in, and the Government’s interest in, ensuring that organisations that have commercial potential are able to secure additional and sustainable funding streams. Forgive me—I am looking for the number, which is not at the top of my head. Historic Environment Scotland now has commercial income of north of £70 million annually, which is significantly more than it has been in recent years. HES is able to do that because the Scottish Government has changed the accountancy procedures that previously acted as a disincentive for it to make more commercial income. That is the first thing.

We have recognised the opportunity that Mr Brown has drawn our attention to. I think that we all understand the challenge facing Historic Environment Scotland, given the nature of our historic estate in Scotland. HES has more than 300 sites. In addition to historical wear and tear, the environmental impact is accelerating the decline at a lot of these very old sites. Anything that can be done to consider a “proper return”, to use Mr Brown’s words, and to think imaginatively about how we can marry up the diaspora and other interests with different parts of Scotland and support particular projects.

As Mr Brown knows, I have responsibility for diaspora matters for the Scottish Government. I have also spoken with the new chief executive and chair about signposting particular projects that are under way in Scotland. They might be Historic Environment Scotland projects, or they might be projects with the National Trust for Scotland or Historic Houses. There is a range of different bits of our historic estate that are, because of wear and tear and environmental damage, in need of significant investment. There is much more that we can do in that regard.

We have made the changes that have begun the process. Is there more that can be done? Yes. Do I believe that the new chief executive and the new chairman are and will be seized of that? Yes, I am. This is one of the grounds for the optimism that I have, notwithstanding the serious challenges that there have been in Historic Environment Scotland. HES’s core business and the opportunity that it has to deal with the challenges of maintaining the estate are issues that it will be able to address with the new leadership that is coming into place in the organisation.

I am sure that the incoming leadership at Historic Environment Scotland will be following this evidence session very closely. The sensible points that Mr Brown has raised will be heard, and I will follow them up in the on-going conversations that I have with the appropriate people at Historic Environment Scotland. Such conversations have taken place in the past and they will continue to take place.