Not only was I not invited to attend any board meetings; more importantly, I ensured that the appropriate officials did attend the board meetings. I have now gone round the houses a number of times with this, convener—

But the question has been asked again, so I will answer it again. I have not been invited to a board meeting, but the board meetings have been attended by the appropriate officials, to make sure that we best understand what the discussions are in Historic Environment Scotland and that we, as the Scottish Government, take the responsibilities that are ours. I have run through them, but I will run through them again. We are making sure that we are—

I was invited to the trustees of the National Museums Scotland at one stage, who wanted to talk with me about fundraising and funding—unsurprisingly. I was invited to attend a board meeting of Creative Scotland at one stage, again to talk about funding. However, in the normal run of things, that would not be how the relationship I have as cabinet secretary with the non-departmental bodies would take place.

There is a regular range of meetings that I have, both formal and informal. Some of them are sit-down meetings and some of them are at-site visits—there are different formats for the meetings. They tend to be with the chief executive and/or the chair of that organisation, which is the appropriate way to do it, and that happens with great regularity.

The chief executives and—I hope and I believe—the chairs of the bodies across my areas of responsibility are very well aware of my wish to be informed about anything they would wish to raise with me personally. However, both they and I have the greatest confidence in the sponsorship team in the culture directorate, which has the direct day-to-day responsibility, as senior officials, to talk with the senior officials in the organisations to make sure that we are best informed and doing everything that we need to do.

I wish to give you the assurance that that is very much the focus of Historic Environment Scotland and our interest in supporting what it does. Indeed, as I alluded to earlier, I was at the headquarters of Historic Environment Scotland with its senior management and others as part of a strategic partnership to deliver on the “Our Past, Our Future” strategy, bringing together non-departmental and other organisations to deliver on exactly those issues, such has the challenge with skills.

You will be aware of—and I have already made mention of—the opening of lock 16 as a focus for skills in traditional crafts that are acutely in demand for Historic Environment Scotland and, in that case specifically, Canals Scotland. That is an example of where changes are happening and partnership working is taking place. Having had the good fortune to be part of the considerations yesterday, I attest that Historic Environment Scotland is seized of that. Partner organisations such as Skills Development Scotland and Young Scot were also part of the conversation, as were enterprise agencies. Others are part of the process, too.

Therefore, the first thing is to say we are very focused today, for obvious reasons, on the particular leadership issues in Historic Environment Scotland. However, I also want to put on record my appreciation for the excellent work that has been taking place within Historic Environment Scotland in relation to matters such as skills and in partnership working. That work perhaps receives less focus because we are dealing with a significant problem at present, but we should not lose sight of the fact that its day-to-day operations continue. What it does is extremely important, and what it is doing financially is, in many respects, ground-breaking.

You also asked to understand when some of the problems emerged. I would not want to opine about that ahead of the investigations that are taking place under new leadership and the chair of Historic Environment Scotland. I think that they will throw up a lot of the answers to when exactly some of the issues took place, to what extent they were endemic or not, and what the consequences must be.

I deemed it necessary that the responsible officials who deal with the day-to-day management of the organisation at that level should attend the meeting. That is the normal custom and practice.

First, the operational and HR questions are matters for Historic Environment Scotland.

Secondly, there is an on-going discussion with all non-departmental bodies around financial questions. That is an on-going issue, which is why we have sponsorship teams. Were there to be any particular ask, as part of dealing with these challenges, I would look on it as I would look on any request made by any body in my area of responsibility. However, I have not had that reported to me.

The committee will be aware that Historic Environment Scotland is a very well funded non-departmental body that is increasingly commercially successful. That is something that we have set great store by, and Historic Environment Scotland has been a model arm’s-length body.

I would need to be advised on that, which I have not been. However, I understand that staff members at Historic Environment Scotland have a range of complaints and concerns. Obviously, legal action is a route that is open to us all as citizens, but I would have to be advised as to the nature of any particular legal complaint before I am able to answer that question.

No, that formed part of the emerging picture in relation to the problems in Historic Environment Scotland. Some of the issues have come to light internally, some have come to light externally, and some have come to light through the media. They contribute to a picture that is a concern for us all.

There were issues that we were aware of, particularly in the first quarter of this year, which helped us to understand that there was a problem in the leadership of Historic Environment Scotland. That was added to by whistleblower information, media reports and then growing formal and informal reports of the different issues that we have all become aware of.

I know that that is very much a priority for the chairman, Sir Mark Jones, who is dealing with a very difficult situation. I know that he is cognisant of all of those factors. I have met HES staff in formal and informal settings and it is clear that, at all levels of the organisation, there is great concern about the circumstances in which it finds itself. You have seen the reports, as have I, about a range of issues that would cause anybody in any workplace very serious concern, but I think that, with new leadership on the board, we are now in a position where those issues can be addressed.

Everybody who is involved directly and indirectly with the situation at HES says that it is an amazing organisation that delivers on the ground—that is important to us all—and that the challenge is one of leadership. That is why I am pleased that we have a new chair in place, that there is to be a chief operating officer to support the changes that will need to take place, and that I will be appointing two new members of the board.

The committee is aware of the process that has been gone through and has taken evidence on the different layers of challenges that exist, but I can say that I am confident that we have, in Sir Mark, somebody who will be able to lead these changes. My civil service colleagues and I will be doing everything that is appropriate for us to support those changes being made.

First, the direct answer to Mr Kerr’s question is that I have not attended a board meeting. I have not been invited to attend a board meeting. However, the way that things operate is that cabinet secretaries or relevant ministers meet regularly with the chief executive and the chair of the organisation, and I have done that. I can go through the interaction with the Scottish Government, because I think that if I was in Mr Kerr’s position, I would be concerned if there was not a very close working relationship between the Scottish Government and HES, given the nature of the challenges that have been raised.

First, to anybody who is watching and does not understand how these things work, the Scottish Government has civil servants in the relevant directorate who have a sponsorship role for non-departmental public bodies—they are known as a sponsorship team. Sponsorship officials meet almost daily with Historic Environment Scotland across the full range of HES directorates and staff. Those meetings include regular catch-ups with the HES chief executive’s office, the finance directorate and the people directorate. The Scottish Government estimates that, since the start of May 2025, there have been more than 100 engagements with Historic Environment Scotland. Sponsorship officials have attended all nine HES board meetings since 22 May, following a request by me that they do so. Those board meetings took place on 22 May, 3 July, 21 August, 28 August, 4 September, 11 September, 18 September, 29 September and 15 October. I could go through a range of interactions involving senior civil servants and senior decision makers in HES.

I am keen for Mr Kerr to be aware that there is full engagement at all levels with Historic Environment Scotland, as there is with other non-departmental bodies. If the board of HES wishes me to attend and meet with it, I am happy to do so. As it so happens, I was at the headquarters of HES yesterday. I do not think that anybody should be under any misapprehensions about the level of involvement with HES and the advice that I receive as cabinet secretary about it.