Chamber and committees

That could be something that we could consider, but it will not be considered in relation to the bill before us.

I believe that today’s debate reinforces the impression that there is broad support for the bill and its policy aims. This is Parliament’s chance to consider an area of law that has not been looked at in any substantial way for more than 100 years. As a whole, the bill seeks to bring the law into line with modern practice, and it takes forward all the substantive recommendations for reform proposed by the SLC.

I thank all the members who have contributed to today’s debate, and I welcome their broad support for the general principles of the bill. However, as the debate has demonstrated, there are matters to consider and some differences of view on some points of detail. I have committed to writing to the committee ahead of stage 2 to provide the further information that it has requested. I look forward to working with the committee and members from across the chamber to consider those issues in the coming weeks.

I saw that report yesterday. There was a lot in that question, which I will come to further on.

Given the versatility of the trust and the uses that it is put to, the bill will ensure that trust law is clear, coherent and able to respond appropriately to modern conditions. Some of the key changes that the bill makes are: changing the method for appointing and removing trustees, including the introduction of a non-judicial method for removing trustees; reforming the powers and duties of trustees, including setting out trustees’ duty of care; and the introduction of a number of important powers that will be conferred on the court, including a new power to alter trust purposes after a period of 25 years has elapsed.

Stakeholders have broadly welcomed the bill and its policy intent. Although many of them have been positive, I am aware that points of detail have been raised, which have been identified in the committee’s report.

The committee heard evidence from a number of academics and legal professionals about the investment power of trustees. The bill largely restates the existing statutory investment powers of trustees. In general, wide powers of investment are conferred on trustees, and they are tightly constrained by the trustees’ duties, including their duty of care and fiduciary duties. Stakeholders would like to see something in the bill about the ability of trustees to reflect environmental, social and governance goals in their investment decisions.

My ministerial colleagues and I are absolutely determined that Scotland’s children and young people are afforded protection from online harm, wherever that harm is caused. I thank all members for their thoughtful reflections throughout the debate.

I was going to come to that point at the end of my speech, but I will go into it now. Pauline McNeill raised the issue, too.

We recognise that this is a global issue and that we have to work together through international collaboration. In June 2022, alongside all our UK Government counterparts, Scottish Government officials attended the WeProtect Global Alliance summit on online child sexual abuse. We will continue to explore how we can strengthen Scottish representation internationally to promote our policies on online child sexual abuse and exploitation.

We want our children and young people to enjoy the internet and all that it has to offer and to do so in a safe and supported way. We want them to stay in control and to know what to do and to whom they should go if they feel at risk. That is why we are prioritising work with our partners and schools to encourage safe and responsible use of the internet. For those children who have experienced trauma, including but not limited to child sexual abuse, the bairns hoose affords Scotland an opportunity to provide a genuinely child-centred approach to delivering justice, care and recovery.

It is important to emphasise that current laws leave no room for ambiguity that child sexual abuse and exploitation—online and offline—are criminal, and the most serious of those offences carry with them a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

I will come to that later in my speech.

It is important that any Government keeps criminal laws under review to ensure that they remain fit for purpose and to provide police and prosecutors with the tools that they require to tackle all forms, both online and offline, of child sexual abuse and exploitation as they emerge. That is why Police Scotland, the Scottish Government and the justice agencies are considering Police Scotland’s proposals, to assess whether changes are required. It might be helpful if I explain a bit more about the Scottish Government’s current position on that.

The proposals can be broadly split into different categories. The first category is on extending the criminal law to cover images of children that do not directly include actual children—for example, cartoon images of child abuse. Current law does not cover that explicitly, with the focus of the law being on images of actual children or what appear to be photographs of actual children that might have been generated using software. It does not extend as far as cartoon images of children.

It is worth noting that it would be rare for such materials of cartoon images of child abuse to be found without the person also having illegal images of actual children. As such, that person could be brought to justice. However, I understand the concerns that some people have expressed about whether such material could be used by those seeking to groom children for abuse, and we will consider whether there is a case for extending the current law to cover illustrations and cartoon depictions of child sexual abuse.

Secondly, Police Scotland has suggested that consideration be given to modernising the law to reflect the emergence of the internet. That has been reflected by a number of MSPs, in view of the fact that much of the existing law was developed prior to the internet’s widespread adoption. The Scottish Government has discussed the issue with prosecutors, who are not aware of any practical issues that have arisen as a result of the way in which the legislation was developed. Our initial view is that the current law provides an effective tool for prosecuting those who use the internet to commit offences that relate to child sexual abuse material, but I assure members that we will continue to reflect on that position and to consider further the views that have been expressed today.

Thirdly, Police Scotland has suggested the consideration of legislation to criminalise the possession of child-like sex dolls. I understand the concern that is caused even by the existence of such dolls. It is useful to bear in mind that legislation already bans their sale, display, distribution and importation, as they would amount to obscene material. However, we will carefully consider whether legislation is merited to criminalise their possession.

Finally, Police Scotland have raised concerns about the use of online encryption tools by child sex offenders to hide their criminal activities from the police. More generally, the use of encryption by organised crime, in particular, is a growing challenge that the police face across a wide range of criminal activities; it is not limited to child sexual online offending. Any proposed solution most certainly requires careful consideration to ensure that it is effective and does not inadvertently interfere with the legitimate uses of encryption—for instance, to protect customer data for online commerce.

The power to legislate on matters that relate to the regulation of internet services is reserved to the UK Parliament under the Scotland Act 1998, but the Scottish Government will play our part in assessing the challenges that encryption can bring to law enforcement.

Presiding Officer, do I have a bit of time?

I thank the committee for bringing the debate to the chamber today, and I also thank all the members who have taken part. They have raised quite a few issues that I will try to address later in my speech.

Online safety is an important issue for the Parliament, as has been reflected in the powerful contributions from across the chamber today. The debate has provided us with a chance to highlight the dangers that our children and young people face online, and to reflect on how we might better protect them.

Online child sexual abuse is now a national threat and the reality is that it is happening to children and young people now, right here in Scotland, in the UK and across the world. What happens to us as children shapes who we are and can have a huge impact on us throughout our lives, especially if those experiences are adverse and involve exploitation or abuse. We have a responsibility to do all that we can to protect our children and young people from harm whenever it occurs, whether online or offline, and we have a responsibility to equip our children and young people so that they are informed and prepared to make the most of digital technologies.

We work with Police Scotland and other partners to find effective ways of deterring potential perpetrators from committing online abuse in the first place. The Minister for Children, Young People and Keeping the Promise has already set out the range of actions that the Scottish Government is taking to tackle the threat.

The Scottish Government is in regular contact with the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and the Fire Brigades Union and those discussions will include how the service is provided to ensure that it is delivering value for the public purse while maintaining community and firefighter safety.

I last met with the SFRS board last week, and with the FBU in June, and officials met with them at the end of August.

I assure the member that we are in constant talks with Police Scotland regarding the delivery plan for the hate crime strategy. The strategy will set out the strategic priorities for tackling and preventing hate crime and has been informed by individuals who have lived experience of hate crime. Police Scotland is on board and we engage with it at every meeting.

I look forward to all members taking part in the forthcoming budget process, and I recognise the constraints on its budget that the Scottish Government has due to continuing United Kingdom Government austerity and the sustained impact of high inflation due to the disastrous Tory budget of Liz Truss, which was announced this time last year.

We have limited levers available to us to increase our spending power in the face of the UK Government’s failure to ensure that public spending responds to the real challenges that people face in their lives; that is a reality.

I hope that the UK Government’s autumn statement realises the situation that the UK cost of living crisis is causing for people and increases the Scottish Government’s budget, but I am not going to hold my breath.

We are maintaining front-line services by having a higher number of firefighters than there is in other parts of the UK. The latest statistics show that, as of 31 March 2022, there were 6.1 firefighters per 10,000 of the population in England. If that ratio was replicated in Scotland, we would have just over 3,342 firefighters, but we had 6,225 firefighters in place at the end of March 2023, which is 11.3 firefighters per 10,000 of the population.

I am also pleased to say that, in February, firefighters accepted a two-year pay offer that runs from July 2022 to the end of June 2024.