Chamber and committees

Under agenda item 2, the committee will take evidence from the Scottish Government on the latest ministerial statements on Covid-19 and on subordinate legislation.

I will start by saying a few words about the draft Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Requirements) (Scotland) Amendment (No 4) Regulations 2021. Last week, George Adam, the Minister for Parliamentary Business, asked to speak to me about the changes to the Covid vaccination certification scheme that the First Minister outlined on 23 November. At our meeting, George Adam explained that the Government is mindful of the concern that this committee and the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee have expressed about the use of the made affirmative procedure and he suggested an approach whereby an expedited affirmative procedure might be used on this occasion.

Members will have seen the correspondence from the Minister for Parliamentary Business explaining the Government’s position. On this occasion, I was minded to accept that suggestion. That meant that the regulations were formally laid on Monday and were considered by the DPLR Committee on Tuesday.

Following its consideration of the regulations, the DPLR Committee has written to this committee. Members have a copy of that correspondence. Following our consideration of the regulations this morning, the regulations will be taken at decision time later today in the chamber.

Although I was minded on this occasion to agree to the Scottish Government’s proposed expedited timetable for scrutiny, that should not be viewed as setting a precedent for future scrutiny. That is something that we can keep under review.

I welcome to the meeting our witnesses from the Scottish Government: John Swinney, the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for COVID Recovery; Professor Jason Leitch, the national clinical director; and Elizabeth Sadler, the deputy director of the Covid ready society. Thank you for your attendance this morning.

Deputy First Minister, would you like to make any remarks before we move to questions?

That concludes our consideration of item 2. I thank the Deputy First Minister and his officials for their evidence.

Item 3 is consideration of the motion on the expedited draft affirmative instrument that we considered under the previous agenda item. Members will note that Scottish statutory instrument 2021/425 was laid on 19 November, and we had intended to take the motion on the instrument at this meeting. The Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee has decided to consider the instrument at its meeting next week, so we will defer consideration of the motion.

Deputy First Minister, would you like to make any further remarks on the draft affirmative instrument on the vaccination certification scheme before we take the motion?

I invite the Deputy First Minister to move motion S6M-02332.

Motion moved,

That the COVID-19 Recovery Committee recommends that the Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Requirements) (Scotland) Amendment (No. 4) Regulations 2021 [draft] be approved.—[John Swinney]

Thank you, Deputy First Minister. I remind members and witnesses that we are restricted for time and each member has around eight minutes for questions.

I will start with the first question. Deputy First Minister, the committee agreed to the expedited timetable because the Scottish Government’s view is that the regulations require to come into force on 6 December. For the record, could you please explain why the Government considers that 6 December, and not another date, is when the regulations should come into force?

It is crucial that we reiterate the importance of following the guidance.

Susan McKellar’s screen has frozen. Can we bring in Michael Clancy?

The question is, that motion S6M-02332 be agreed to.

Motion agreed to,

That the COVID-19 Recovery Committee recommends that the Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Requirements) (Scotland) Amendment (No. 4) Regulations 2021 [draft] be approved.

The committee will publish a report to the Parliament later today setting out our decision on the regulations. That concludes our consideration of this item and our time with the Deputy First Minister. I thank him and his supporting officials for their attendance this morning.

The committee’s next meeting will be on 9 December, when we will take evidence from stakeholders on the vaccination programme.

That concludes the public part of our meeting.

I believe that the Scottish Government is doing everything that it can that has been advised by the experts at this time but, as we move forward, we might have to investigate other options.

We all have full mailboxes regarding the challenge of non-compliance and current health protection measures, be it the wearing of face masks in shops or people who are, for a variety of reasons, reluctant to get vaccinated. It is clear that more work must be done in those areas to change the public attitude.

We also need to think about how we build for the future and ensure that our buildings are fit for purpose and able to cope with any future pandemics.

It is my pleasure to open the debate and to speak as the convener of the COVID-19 Recovery Committee about our work on preparing for winter and priorities for recovery.

In March 2020, the world was caught off guard. We were not prepared. With the emergence of the omicron variant last week, it is evident that the pandemic continues and that the virus remains very much with us. Although we continue to live in that fluid situation, we expect this winter to be difficult. In particular, we are preparing for a more challenging flu season.

Through the pandemic, we have learned that effective, early interventions—often a lot earlier than might seem obvious at first sight—are needed to prevent harm and to reduce the need for stronger intervention later on. We need to learn from the pandemic and ensure that we are never again in the position that we were in in March 2020, when schools and businesses shut and we were all told to stay at home.

Shortly, I will talk about the committee’s work on baseline health protection measures in the run-up to winter. First, however, it is important to stress that many of the issues that are raised with the COVID-19 Recovery Committee overlap with the work of other committees, such as—to name just a few—the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, the Education, Children and Young People Committee, and the Finance and Public Administration Committee. The COVID-19 Recovery committee has made a great effort not to duplicate the important work that is done by other committees. Instead, we have focused on the on-going public health measures that are being used to respond to Covid-19.

At committee, we routinely consider regulations that put in place the on-going changes to health protection and travel restriction measures. However, our inquiry has allowed us to get under the surface of the issues. In the new year, we intend to prioritise scrutiny of Covid-19 recovery, with a specific focus on health inequalities.

This is an important debate—the first of its kind—with the opportunity for all conveners to speak about their committee’s Covid-19 recovery-related scrutiny work. I am looking forward to contributions from other committees on their work, and to the Deputy First Minister’s response.

The COVID-19 Recovery Committee decided to undertake work on what role baseline health protection measures—in particular, ventilation—could play in lessening the impact of Covid-19, especially over winter and as we move forward. We also looked at the measures that are needed to support long-term recovery. During our inquiry, we heard first from ventilation experts and then from those working in health and social care services, the hospitality industry, the business and leisure sectors, and schools. We looked at ventilation and at the relative success of other health protection measures in helping to slow down the spread of the virus.

We all know that one of the main ways in which the virus spreads is through the inhalation of droplets in the air and that ventilation is one of the key measures that is used in reducing spread through inhalation. Although I am aware of yesterday’s debate, not much of the focus prior to that had been on ventilation, so we looked at how improvements in ventilation could be an effective response to a potentially worsening situation. With a difficult winter upon us, we want to do everything that we can to prevent any closures of schools and businesses. No one wants that to happen.

We asked witnesses what could be done to keep businesses in the hospitality and leisure sectors open, and how best to keep health and social care services open—services such as general practitioner surgeries, dentists and social care centres. We also considered health protection measures in schools and their impact on young people.

We were told of the challenges that are faced by the retail and hospitality sectors. We heard of the importance of carbon dioxide monitors in assessing ventilation in buildings. We discussed the support that is available to businesses to improve ventilation and install CO₂ monitors to reduce transmission, and the challenges that are faced by the leisure industry, which often uses buildings that are not always suited to the ventilation adaptations that are required.

We heard of the impact that the baseline measures have had on health and social care capacity and how services are delivered. We were told that doctors were continuing to provide a mixture of remote and in-person consultations in order to meet demand, and that the wearing of a mask can sometimes be a challenge when it comes to non-verbal communication during in-person consultations. I was delighted to learn yesterday that new transparent face masks that are made in Scotland have been approved for use in health and social care settings and that they will be in use in NHS Scotland from this month.

We were told that more than four million dental appointments have been lost since the beginning of the pandemic, with baseline measures limiting capacity to between 40 and 50 per cent. We also heard that the workforce in social care services has been affected and that the economic stability of the sector is at risk.

The vaccine certification scheme, and possible extensions to it, were issues of concern to the business and hospitality sectors, although there was no consensus among the witnesses on whether the scheme should be extended. We will continue to pay close attention to that debate and scrutinise any proposed changes to the scheme through the appropriate regulations.

I turn to schools. In general, witnesses were supportive of mask wearing in schools as a necessary measure to stop the spread of Covid-19 and to help keep our schools open. However, there was no consensus among parents about the wearing of face masks in schools. Some had concerns over pupils’ learning in relation to hearing and understanding, and thought that masks should be removed in classrooms. We heard about the challenges of achieving an appropriate balance between heating and ventilation in schools. Concerns were raised about the increasing costs associated with providing additional heating and ventilation systems, and whether heating systems would be able to cope with the worsening weather over the winter.

We also took written evidence from members of the Scottish Youth Parliament about their general thoughts on Covid restrictions—for example, how hard it was for them not to see friends and family during lockdown, and their mixed feelings about current restrictions. One MSYP said:

“I’ve got mixed feelings. I agree we need to be unlocked but I don’t like the idea of clubs being open because cases are going up again … I’m a bit unsure … I’m not going to go to a club, not going to chance it. But with Uni being back, I think that should be more prioritised than clubs ... I think some restrictions, seminars being in person is good, but some people want lectures to be in person instead of online. Having 100 people in a lecture hall wearing masks doesn’t feel great”.

What did the committee learn from its inquiry? It showed me how much can be achieved through relatively simple modifications and forward thinking regarding the proper ventilation of our buildings. Although it does not exactly set the heather alight, we learned about the simple things that can help, such as the use, wherever possible, of high-level rather than low-level windows. That prevents cold draughts while still providing good ventilation—it is simple, but effective.

I urge the Scottish Government to review the evidence that we heard and consider any new ways to promote the use of good ventilation to help prevent the spread of Covid-19.