Chamber and committees

There are a number of things in that. I will come on to the bill in a second. The policy that the legislation is wrapped around is important. We met COSLA last week and talked about funding for additional acquisitions. At that stage, for the ability to look at acquisitions and voids, it was agreed to focus on the local authorities that are under more pressure than others at the moment.

The housing to 2040 strategy group also met a couple of weeks ago, and key things that we said were, first, that we should try to make more properties available and, secondly, that there should be a real focus on how we get children, specifically, out of temporary accommodation as soon as possible. That is the supply side of how we deal with the issue.

Last week, I met Glasgow City Council. It probably has the biggest issue at the moment, so we talked about how to bring more supply. Again, there are voids, acquisitions, allocation policies and so on.

A key thing in the legislation is the holistic approach. It comes back to being aware between the two-month period and the six-month period. Having been a councillor, you will know that two months is not enough for someone who presents as potentially homeless. We need that longer period. That part of the legislation on its own—just trying to identify what the risk could be—is really important.

As we know, the Crisis homelessness monitor talked about the local housing allowance as one of the two biggest drivers of the rise in homelessness, particularly in families with children. I will pick that up with my United Kingdom Government equivalent, as I tried to do previously. It is also about the level of universal credit and dealing with poverty. Many people who arrive in that situation are in poverty, so that six-monthly approach is incredibly important. If there is necessary financial help that they can get, that is really important.

Again, we need a holistic approach from local authorities and from, for example, the NHS or link workers. One of the key things at the NHS level is the experience of link workers. I met link workers in Edinburgh six or seven months ago. One of the biggest drivers for people getting into that situation in Edinburgh is poverty, so it is about trying to identify the link workers and their role in the broader NHS to pass people on to get financial advice and so on that picks up on the key issues.

The six-monthly approach is incredibly important. It is about engaging with the NHS on its approach to identifying problems at an early stage. A fifth to a quarter of women who end up in homelessness do so because of domestic abuse, so it is also about engaging with the likes of Women’s Aid. If people are in hospital, it is about identifying that. If somebody has suffered domestic abuse, they might end up in hospital. How do we pick up on that? There are a number of occasions when we can.

The real issue comes back to that holistic approach and dealing with it at a much earlier stage. That is the incredibly important part of the issue. It also comes back to Roz McCall’s point about making sure that we are dealing with homelessness not just in urban settings but in rural settings. Early engagement and the holistic approach that the bill is pushing is incredibly important.

The prisons inspectorate would look at the SHORE standards with regard to specific points around the prisons.

We are in discussions with the Scottish Housing Regulator about what that scrutiny looks like, and building on that is one of the key things. You are right that there is no point in just saying that we are trying to get improvement. How do we evaluate that? How do we monitor that? That is the important part. For example, we talked with the Prison Service about remand prisoners. What does it need to do when prisoners are released early? What do we do about that? Again, some of that is about what the prisons inspectorate does and how we work with the housing regulator. We are in discussion with them about what happens at that particular moment. I will maybe ask Catriona MacKean or Matt Howarth to comment on that particular point. We are engaging with the housing regulator to ask how we evaluate and monitor that.

Again, some of the key things will be about getting figures from the local authorities and engaging with them on a local basis about how important that is. We are in discussion with the housing regulator to make sure that the standards that we expect—and how we measure and evaluate them—will be part of the discussions going forward.

I do not know whether Catriona MacKean or Matt Howarth have anything to add on that.

You will know from dealing with people when they arrive at that point that nobody wants to be homeless. Some people arrive there very quickly for various reasons. One of the key aspects of the wider discussions that we have had with the likes of the Scottish Prison Service is how we deal with prisoners who are leaving prison. If we do not deal with that, particularly for remand prisoners, they will end up sleeping on a friend’s couch or sleeping rough. One of the key things is to avoid that situation.

It is also about trying to engage with the NHS at a local level. It is not so much about discussing stigma as it is about making sure that, in dealing with people who are at that point, we give them the respect that they deserve, which comes back to the crux of the matter. We cannot have people leaving prison and going to sleep on a friend’s couch or sleeping rough. That is why we are trying to deal with remand prisoners in a way that solves that issue by changing the period from two months to six months.

It is the same when it comes to domestic abuse. Women suffer stigma because of domestic abuse. If we identify potential homelessness in domestic abuse cases over six months rather than two months, that will allow us to deal with such situations more quickly and manage them in the best way possible. We talked about the fund to leave, which was brought in. We worked closely with Women’s Aid on giving women the ability to leave by providing them with funds. It is about building on that work and managing the situation rather than people getting into a position where they quickly become homeless. It is literally a crisis situation at that particular point. The stigma issue is dealt with as part of the whole thing. It is about trying to plan as much as possible, and moving from the two-month period to the six-month period, as well as the legal obligations, gives us the ability to do that.

We have had round-table meetings, so the subject has been discussed. We have had two or three of those, if I remember correctly. There has been direct involvement of landowners.

Yes. It has to. I return to the point that all 32 local authorities are different. We need to try to get the right approach across Scotland.

We are talking about social landlords, but we have also had discussions with the private rented sector. As members will know, hundreds of thousands of landlords are involved in the PRS, so we have met the Scottish Association of Landlords to discuss its approach and it is aware of what it needs to look at. Discussions are on-going with the broader PRS when it comes to individual landlords or landlords who have a small number of properties. However, again, we are focusing and working on that with SAL, and it knows that it needs to develop that approach.

There are a few things to say on that. The legislation itself sets out what it means to ask and to act with regard to those duties. Acting is about working just where the person is now. We had a chat with the national health service, and examples such as yours were one of the things that were raised.

One of the key things that we have to do with our NHS is talk about training and guidance. What that looks like is incredibly important, so we will continue to work on that with the NHS and with different bodies within it. It is an on-going process. When we spoke to stakeholders involved in it, the need to have the training and guidance was one of the key points that they made. During the meeting with the NHS, we talked about those discussions, what that training and guidance will look like and how we will build upon that.

Obviously, the act duty involves working with key partners. I mentioned the holistic approach, too. We obviously need to make sure that there is a process in place so that we know what that actually looks like. In that way, if someone who is in that situation comes in, people will know how to act on that. They need to ask the proper questions about whether there is a risk of homelessness, but what does the person who is acting need to do beyond that?

The training and guidance are incredibly important on that point, but—

I will bring in Catriona MacKean on that particular point, but you are right about best practice. Cyrenians does very well in the area of hospital outreach. We want to build on good practice and on the work that it has done, so we have met Cyrenians to build on what is already being done. That is really important. We have also been speaking to the change teams, who have experience in the healthcare sector, to build on what they are doing.

You are right that this is not about reinventing the wheel. Like me, you were previously a councillor, so you will know that people become homeless in different situations and have different experiences—some experiences are really good and others are not as good as they should be. The prevention duty is an attempt to build on what is already there. It is important to learn from Cyrenians and from the change teams and to build on that. When we spoke to NHS teams, one of the key things that they told us was about building on the protocols. This is not about starting anew. We are building on existing good practice and protocols.

I will ask Catriona MacKean to talk about the particular case that you mentioned. If she cannot, I will get back to you on that point. You are right that this is about building on existing good practice to ensure that people have a much more uniform experience that is better than it has been previously.

I have mentioned the change teams, who have direct experience of what you are asking about and are there at the start of the process. There were also the task and finish groups, which included people with lived experience.

We are very much listening to people with lived experience. Indeed, that is the most important part. Yes, we are asking about the legal duties on the NHS, the Scottish Prison Service and others, but this is all about whether we are providing the service that is needed for people who are at risk of homelessness.

I come back to the point that, previously, there was a mixed approach. If someone had the necessary training or guidance, the procedure would be in place and people would be dealt with earlier—but it was all dependent on that. We are trying to give legal certainty to the likes of the NHS and the Scottish Prison Service, but we are also looking at the training and guidance aspects and are working in partnership with those organisations to ensure that our reach goes as far as it can, that people get identified at an early stage and that the organisations ask and act, as part of their duties, and then pass people on, whether through referrals or whatever.

All of this has been happening very much through the change teams and through working with the likes of Cyrenians, which deals with such issues, too. We are taking into account lived experience, as it is incredibly important.

First, on whether I plan to engage, my answer is yes. That is incredibly important. As I said, there is an event in October, and I will plan to have meetings before or slightly after that. I know that you have referred to this issue before, Mr Doris, so I am happy to do that.

As you know, we cannot compel the DWP to do anything, but we can discuss how we can work more closely with it, as we engage with the NHS, the Scottish Prison Service and so on. I will meet those organisations to discuss such issues in more detail. We cannot compel them, but we might be able to discuss the possibility of a concordat, as you mentioned, with the DWP. Until we have such a discussion, it is hard to see what might evolve from it, but we will certainly look to engage with not just the organisations that are named in the legislation but those that are outwith it.

I know that there have been discussions at official level, but I intend to meet those organisations. Does Catriona MacKean or Matt Howarth want to add anything about the discussions that we have had so far?