Chamber and committees

Thank you. I will come to the matter of rights at the end of my speech.

Many of us are pandemic weary, yet we recognise that proportionate actions based on assessment of risk can allow resumption of some activities. Nobody today so far has mentioned the number of Governments around the world that have developed similar schemes—the entire European Union, with its Covid digital certification, Switzerland, Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein. Such schemes are in widespread use in Austria, France, Germany, Israel, Italy and so on. Northern Ireland and Wales are considering a similar move, and even the United Kingdom Prime Minister has stated that it is not sensible to rule out the option now, when we must face the fact that it might make the difference between businesses being open at full capacity and not being open at full capacity. [Interruption.] I will be very interested to see how Douglas Ross will vote if the issue comes to his other chamber. [Interruption.] I will carry on, because I am limited in time.

Last night new guidance was published that allows for a staged approach.

Douglas Ross is confusing two things. There might be a case to make for policies evolving, but we are talking about the principle of vaccination certification, so I asked him how he will vote. [Interruption.] I must make progress.

Business has been listened to, so more time has been allowed in the form of a grace period. That has to be recognised. The scheme will not take legal effect until 18 October, which will allow businesses and other key stakeholders time to plan. To suggest that business cannot fathom a way out of a set of circumstances that it has continually managed to work its way through, when doing so has been very difficult, is utterly patronising to business.

Flexible adaptation is the key. If we have learned one thing through the course of the pandemic, it is that what science suggests is the best solution at the time often requires to be rethought. Knowing that there will inevitably be change is not a rational reason to do nothing.

Balancing protection with a resumption of public life and a secure trading environment for business is what certification will bring.

I will leave members with a few final thoughts.

Thank you for those responses. The problem is that, as we all agree, we do not know anything until the data is there. Obviously, your function fits in with that. However, how do we strike the right balance between retrospective assessment and future forecasting, particularly if we are to adhere to good principles of accountability and responsibility? Do you have any plans to put some meat on the bones? How will that make your scrutiny role—and ours—more complex? It may be that, as you start to get more information coming through, you will also consider reflecting on that. The situation is beyond complex already, and this will make it complex cubed, in my humble opinion.

We have spent a large part of this evidence session looking at and evaluating the complexity of Audit Scotland’s scrutiny and our scrutiny. As Mark Taylor pointed out, it is the case that we can start to understand a lot of spending only once it is in the past.

I will ask about something that I am struggling to get my head around. In my former life in management, there was a clear difference between accountability and responsibility. I see that difference writ large here, because the Scottish Government is accountable for spend outcomes via the national performance framework, which we have talked about, but it has no responsibility in certain areas. We have the curious situation where the Scottish Government is accountable for the outcomes but it has no responsibility for efficient and effective delivery. The UK Government is responsible, but it is reluctant to be held accountable, or it has no accountability in the area.

It is on the record that the replacement for European Union structural funds will be spent by the UK Government and administered by a local government minister—I think that it is the English communities minister—direct to local councils. How on earth can you audit that effectively? I can see that Mark Taylor thinks that that question is a belter. How are you reflecting on that additional complexity and linking it back to outcomes?

In terms of the stats for your group, where does Grangemouth fit in all the measures that you would apply—particularly, I imagine, around profitability? I do not mean in relative terms to Scotland’s economy, but in relative terms to the group.

You must have sensed the point that I was coming on to. I was going to ask what you would need to do in order to move Grangemouth to number 1. In particular, what structural issues would you seek to overcome?

Just to finish off on this point, with reference to the current structure of the owning company, does the level of debt leverage limit investment?

I just wanted to clarify that.

Good morning. I want to address some questions to Charles Hammond. You commented earlier that Scotland is “peripheral” to Europe. With regard to comparative shipping figures—I do not know how up to date these figures are now—there were reports that Reykjavik in Iceland, which has a population of about 350,000, shipped as much as Grangemouth. What are the current comparable figures, and what might be the reason for that?

With regard to the performance of all the ports that you own, where does Grangemouth fit relative to the others? What ranking would you give it?