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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 14 September 2025
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Displaying 2287 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

I used to work in a pensions company, so I am with you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

So, it is policy driven—I understand that. You are correct that the amalgamation of health and social care has been a wish for a long time. However, that different approach has clearly introduced significant other risks, even with apportioning or estimating costs up front. The ranges that you have set out are very wide.

Let me put it this way: if it was your personal money, you would not be risking it. How will you mitigate the risk of there being significant cost overruns in a multitude of areas? My colleagues have mentioned issues with VAT, defined benefit pensions, assets, staff, double running, IT and even uncertainty about the governance of boards. Each one of those issues would introduce additional costs. How will you mitigate the risks in the process that you have adopted?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

You make a point that reflects my personal experience, which is that a programme plan is only ever accurate after the programme has finished. That is the standard issue and risk for all the spend. What you are describing makes that more likely, rather than less likely. You are talking about the business cases in the areas that you mentioned earlier, but only at that point will we start, from a financial perspective, to get a sense of the risks to the public purse. There are concerns about parliamentary scrutiny, on which I absolutely back up what my colleague, Mr Mason, said.

I looked in the financial memorandum specifically for the word “risk”. It is mentioned only twice. However, this is screaming out that there are huge risks, to me. It might be that you are under pressure in terms of timescales in which to deliver, but from my perspective of financial scrutiny, I am seeing a blank cheque. That is deeply worrying in respect of the public purse.

If you had had a choice, would you have produced that financial memorandum or would you have wanted more detail and further breakdowns based on the policy provisions? Were you pushed to bring forward the financial memorandum?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Thank you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Good morning. I read all your submissions with great interest, and I share your concerns about some of the issues that have already been touched on around VAT, pensions, assets, governance and so on. In the previous evidence session, I added in some of my own concerns. However, in the interests of giving every panel an equally hard time, I want to ask you some questions.

Any change that removes or is perceived to remove responsibilities is always resisted by the affected body. To what extent are you simply resistant to change and protecting your own turf, if you like?

Sarah Watters smiled, so she can go first.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

When do you anticipate baselining your estimated costs, so that you can nail your colours to the mast a bit more? At what point will that occur?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

To build on that, we talked earlier about economies of scale. I think that Paul Manning mentioned the loss of economies of scale to local government. However, a corollary of that is the benefit of economies of scale to the Scottish Government. I want to ask about that because, all the way through this session, we have commented on public sector funding and our being in a precarious position, and we do that continually.

What specific economies of scale can you see with at least some of the proposals for the Scottish Government and therefore the public purse? It strikes me—I have put this on the record before—that having 32 local authorities with duplicate functions across the board is not necessarily the most efficient way of working. I am interested in your thoughts about where the economies of scale are for the Scottish Government rather than the disbenefit of economies of scale for you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

The financial memorandum does not mention economies of scale.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Does Sharon Wearing want to answer either of my questions?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

My last question is on the process and the production of the financial memorandum. It has to be produced alongside the bill—that is a matter of process in the Parliament. However, it strikes me that we are talking about a very large bill. Somebody referred to colleges earlier; I imagine that there were similar issues with them. The issue is absolutely huge, and I cannot see how a financial memorandum can be produced at this point in time with any degree of accuracy whatsoever, when there are still huge questions about the requirements and the enactment.

During the earlier panel session, I asked how we as a committee will ensure that there is adequate financial scrutiny. That is our primary purpose. I got back the assurance that the resultant business cases, which would contain risk assessments, would be brought forward to us. My question to you, from the other side, is whether that will be adequate. I think that we all agree that there are significant gaps in the financial memorandum as it stands. From a financial scrutiny perspective, will the process in the financial memorandum work for something of that scale?