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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 July 2025
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Displaying 1690 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 23 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

I have a final comment, convener. I know that I still have some time.

John Connolly mentioned culture and innovation. There is a tendency with some people to think that reform of the public sector means having less of it but with the same structure, culture and behaviours. You distinctly made that comment about innovation. At a change level, it is extraordinarily difficult in any organisation to change culture and empower people. Do you have final thoughts about how you would go about that? It is quite a challenge.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 16 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

Thank you. The general question—which, in fairness, I do not expect you to be able to answer today—is whether there is a possibility that some of those types of bodies that receive Scottish Government funding get more than 50 per cent of their income stream that way. In fairness to you, I do not expect you to know that data for every single organisation.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 16 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

Okay, so my next question is where that would be declared by the Scottish Government and/or the civil service as a risk in terms of your decision making. I fully accept that it is a risk for the organisations, because of exactly what you highlighted, but it also represents a risk to both the civil service and the Scottish Government, if a number of bodies are receiving more than 50 per cent of their funding from you. Perhaps the permanent secretary would like to come in and say where in the institutional memory, if you like, that would be declared, understood and assessed.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 16 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

You have just commented on the volume of responses, rather than the quality. My point is that, in that significant volume, which I absolutely do not doubt, nobody at any point thought it that was appropriate to look at the impact on women who have been sexually assaulted—a huge percentage of women, as you will know—or raped, of having fully intact men in their safe spaces. That says to me that something was not right with the process, risk assessment and decision making. Do you accept that or am I missing something? Do you accept that, clearly, something was not quite right with the processes? It is not about volume of responses, it is about quality.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 16 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

Permanent Secretary, do you have any final comments on that? Were you surprised at my comment?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 16 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

I was expecting the tradition of the convener going first to be in operation, but okay. We will just go in with the heavy brogues, then.

My question might well be for the cabinet secretary. I am interested in exploring whether any third sector groups obtain more than 50 per cent of their funding from the Scottish Government.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 16 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

I feel as though I have taken a great deal of time on this topic, so I want to let other colleagues in. Thank you both.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 16 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

I have just a couple of quick questions, because I know that we are coming to the end of the session.

Permanent secretary, you have been in post since 2022, as you have pointed out, and you have been able to make a pretty fair assessment of what you noticed at the start. What now keeps you awake at night, and why?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 16 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

Yes—to get some flavour of that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 16 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

This is my final question. Concern was expressed about the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill. I am mindful that that is a contentious policy and I am not trying to make a political point; I am merely using it as an example of what I am driving at. During the bill process, a point was made about the equality impact assessments that were carried out over a six-year period. No cognisance was given to the impact on women and girls who had been sexually assaulted or raped of having men with fully intact genitalia—setting to one side their right to be referred to in line with their chosen gender—in those women’s safe places.

I asked Engender whether it had carried out any assessments. The reply was that it had not and that it would not have carried out the EQIA anyway.

There are ideas about avoiding policy capture, having critical friends and making robust decisions. So, how did we get to a position where nobody thought about that impact on women and girls for six years?