Chamber and committees

Okay. I will move on to my final question. What challenges have you faced in tracking actions and outcomes following Government or public body commitments? Why do you believe that the process is more complex than it should be?

You have said that you are looking at the recommendations. If you are not making recommendations yourself, how can you be part of the process and say whether bodies have gone and done each recommendation? I am confused, to be honest with you.

Are you saying that you have not managed to involve them directly in this piece of work? I am sorry—I am not trying to put words in your mouth.

You have said that you are talking to groups, but there are a lot of non-attending children who are like I was, I must admit, in third year: I did not go to any groups, stayed at home and did not connect with anybody. How are you reaching those children? They tend to be the most vulnerable. They might have issues at home, or they might just come from disadvantaged backgrounds. They are the folk who are hardest to reach. As Willie Rennie always says, how do we get the voice of that little boy in the classroom heard—even if he is in the classroom?

The commissioner said that the recommendation was that the Scottish Government should basically just get on with it. I took that to mean that you had no recommendations moving forward.

I will leave it there, convener.

Good morning. Following on from George Adam’s questions about hard-to-reach children, I heard you say earlier that you were engaging in mainstream schools. Have you done any engagement with our non-attending children? Before I came to the committee today, I did a little bit of digging and saw that the Children’s Commissioner for England has recently done a report on England’s missing children. I thought that it was really good. Are you thinking of doing a piece of work like that, too?

My next question is about military children; you touched on them. We have two different kinds of military children. First, we have our serving military families who move every couple of years and the children have to move schools. What could be done to ensure that their education continues and does not go all over the place? Secondly, we have our veterans’ children, who are used to moving every couple of years but are suddenly put into a school permanently when mum or dad leaves the military. That is a huge change for them. What needs to be put in place to ensure that their needs are met?

We also have—I apologise for going off on a bit of a rant—children who have serving parents who might be away for months at a time. What can be put in place to ensure that they are emotionally supported?

This is a difficult day for us all. I offer my condolences to Keith Brown, Christina’s sons and their families and friends. The bright shining light that was Christina McKelvie touched us all, and it will never dim, as she will be forever in our hearts.

So, to business. First, I pay tribute to Liz Smith for taking forward her member’s bill and engaging with all committee members in a constructive manner. Many thanks go to all the people and organisations who provided evidence, either in person or by responding to the calls for views. I also thank the clerks and my colleagues for all their hard work.

As has previously been stated, the bill aims to provide every child in Scotland with the chance to have residential outdoor education, no matter where they live or who they are. I totally agree with the sentiment of what is trying to be achieved and with the idea behind the bill. On first glance, the aim seems to be quite an easy thing to achieve, and it is safe to say that, during the evidence sessions, no one disagreed with the idea.

However, the committee has outlined concerns in relation to a number of things in the bill, including the financial aspects and the impact on teachers’ pay and conditions. When we started to dig down into what the proposal would actually mean, questions arose in relation to how it would be delivered, and I think that those questions need to be answered before we move forward.

For example, one of the three aims of the bill is to place a duty on education authorities and managers of grant-aided schools to secure the provision of at least one course of residential outdoor education for each pupil. That seems simple enough, but what happens if a child moves local authority before the authority that they are leaving has fulfilled that obligation, but after the local authority that they are moving to has already fulfilled it for the children that it is responsible for? Which local authority would be held account in providing that child with residential outdoor education?

I am sorry, but I do not have the political fight in me today to take an intervention.

We heard from teachers who posed questions in respect of attending the outdoor experiences with their class. We were told that an additional teacher would be required if there was a child with additional needs, in case the child was unable to cope with a change of routine, for example, and needed to go home immediately. The additional teacher would then have to escort the child back to their parents, as the child could not travel alone, and that additional cost has not been addressed.

Leaving that aside, no consideration has been given to the fact that the teacher might have caring responsibilities in their own private life. That is not an issue in their normal working day, but what if they had to be away for a night or for the full week, which would add stress and potential financial burden to them? What happens if they are unable to procure childcare for their own families, including potential overnight childcare? Who would reimburse them, or would there be an expectation that they would need to meet that cost on their own? We were told during the evidence session that going on the residential trip could be voluntary, but we cannot expect all teachers to undertake that on a voluntary basis.

I agree with the folk who said that teachers’ terms and conditions would need to be renegotiated. With no budget line being provided, where would that funding for that come from? I was one of the committee members who wanted that point added to the stage 1 report, but that proposal was defeated when it came to the casting vote.

Going back to teachers taking part on a voluntary basis, I was told by some teachers that, in some instances, they are voluntold rather than getting to volunteer freely. My fear is that, if that is the case, it could put our future generation of teachers off going into the profession.

I would like to see every child getting the same chance as the next, no matter who they are or where they are from, but we heard that it is more difficult to gain access to outdoor centres during the summer months because of their popularity. They do not just have schools booking but private companies for team-building and away days, so there is a lack of availability and the cost of booking at that time is much higher.

One witness who we heard from suggested that a potential solution could be that schools from less affluent areas could book in the winter months, when demand is less and costs are lower. However, in my view, that would not give an equal experience of the outdoors. Doing outdoor activities in the summer months is totally different from doing those same activities in the dark mornings, on cold and frosty days, or in the rain or snow. I still remember my time from Auldearn primary school when I was on top of the Cairn Gorm in my T-shirt and jeans, trying to ski.

Teachers told us that, even when a booking is secured, the cost of the additional clothes that would be needed could be immense to some families. The answer that we heard from the outdoor centres was that specialist gear could be provided, but, as one teacher said, additional clothing does not necessarily mean specialist clothing. Some families could struggle with providing the essential day-to-day items, such as extra socks, underwear and pyjamas, or even with just having to purchase the bag to put them in. If we truly want children to have equal opportunities, we must ensure that no undue expense and financial drain are put on those who can least afford it.

That is just a small section of the concerns that were raised during the evidence sessions. As I said at the beginning, I agree with the general idea, but the concerns that were raised have to be addressed. We need to know how much budget would be needed, and I look forward to hearing some solutions as we move forward.