Plenary, 28 Nov 2002

Meeting date: Thursday, November 28, 2002

Official Report 794KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

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Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S1F-2296)

The agenda for next week's Cabinet has not yet been agreed, but I expect our discussions to include updates on current issues, such as the fire dispute and the protection of Scotland's fishing communities.

This morning, the Minister for Health and Community Care said:

"it is heartening to see that nearly 90 per cent of patients are seen within 6 months".

Does the First Minister agree that that is far from heartening, as the figure was 95 per cent when the Executive came to office in 1999? It was a disgrace that, in 1999, people had to wait six weeks to see a consultant, but now they must wait more than eight weeks. In 1999, after seeing a consultant, people had to wait four weeks for treatment, but now they must wait five weeks. Will the First Minister explain that appalling failure to deliver? How have the First Minister and the Executive managed to make a bad situation even worse?

Our health policy has put patients first. That is why the first priority in that policy was to cut waiting times in relation to Scotland's killer diseases—heart disease, stroke and cancer, which are well known in the Parliament and elsewhere. Our next priority was to cut the time for those waiting for hospital treatment to nine months by December 2003. We are on course to meet that target. Our next big challenge, which is vital, is to reduce the waiting times for out-patients. People in Scotland waiting for a first appointment should not have to wait longer than six months. By systematically investing and reforming at the same time, we will ensure that patients are put first. Step by step, we will ensure that all patients receive the service that they deserve.

I do not see how any of that is possible if the situation keeps on getting worse, as was shown to be the case this morning. The First Minister has asked us to judge him on how long people have to wait for treatment—he described that as his litmus test. Today, the Executive claimed that only 19 people were waiting longer than 12 months for treatment, which, in itself, is an increase. If we look carefully at the figures that were published this morning—I have them in front of me—we see that the true figure is not 19 or 1,900 people, but 2,526 people waiting longer than 12 months for treatment. Will the First Minister explain why the Executive conceals the true figure and why that true figure has increased by 300 per cent since the Government took office?

Distorting figures is not the same as having policies that solve the long-term problems in our health service. The devolved Government's priorities of ensuring that the top-priority diseases are tackled first and of reducing waiting times are working in Scotland. The waiting time for heart bypass operations is down not only from 193 days in 1997 to 40 days today, but from 75 days to 40 days even in the past year, which is a reduction of almost 50 per cent. There have been other reductions in the other top-priority areas.

The next big priority, which has been discussed over and again in the chamber, is to reduce waiting times for all people who are waiting for hospital treatment to less than nine months by December 2003. Today, the Minister for Health and Community Care announced further actions that are making a difference to achieve that target, such as buying all private sector capacity in Scotland for next year and new facilities at the former Health Care International facility in Clydebank. Those concrete policies will reduce waiting times in Scotland. Slogans are not a substitute for them.

As we are on the subject of slogans, the Minister for Health and Community Care said this morning:

"Nothing matters more to patients than the length of time that they have to wait for treatment."

The First Minister just gave me the answer to a host of questions—however worthy they might be—that have nothing to do with the Minister for Health and Community Care's statement that

"Nothing matters more … than the length of time"

that people must wait.

The First Minister refers to the distorting of statistics. Here are the statistics from the Government's database. In 1999, 786 people had waited longer than 12 months for treatment. Today, that figure is 2,526. Last year, we had the closed waiting list con, then the deferred waiting list con and then the reclassified waiting list con. Now, we have the 12-month waiting list con. When will the First Minister stop conning the people and start telling the truth about the damage that the Executive is doing to the health service?

The truth that I will tell is of the action that we are taking to improve the health service in Scotland. [Interruption.]

Order. I want to hear the answer.

It is right that action is taken on the top priorities. Reducing the waiting time for coronary bypass operations from 193 days to 40 days saves lives and such operations are a far higher priority than some of the operations to which the member refers.

What matters most?

What I said is right. If someone's life is threatened, that is a higher priority. What matters most is the action that is being taken. This morning, action was announced on buying all private sector capacity for next year. At the meeting of health trust chief executives this morning, the Minister for Health and Community Care announced action to open two new fast-track theatres for orthopaedic surgery at the new centre in Clydebank. Action was announced this afternoon on ensuring not only the minimum wage—to which the Minister for Health and Community Care just referred—but 6 per cent increases in the starting and maximum salaries for Scotland's nurses, which will improve recruitment and retention. That is the action that puts patients first. Patients are more important than slogans and statistics.

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Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he next plans to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues he intends to raise. (S1F-2297)

I met the Secretary of State for Scotland last week and we plan to meet again shortly.

I thank the First Minister for that answer. I hope that when he and the Secretary of State for Scotland meet, they will discuss the fact that, in England, the Home Secretary has vigorously defended his right to set minimum terms for murderers, notwithstanding this week's ruling in the House of Lords on the compatibility of that with the European convention on human rights. In Scotland, Mr Wallace ran up the white flag about 18 months ago without a fight or a second thought. Will the First Minister consider legislation for Scotland on tariffs for sentencing along the lines proposed by the Home Secretary so that we retain the principle of parliamentary accountability in relation to the most serious and heinous of crimes and so that, for some perpetrators, life means life?

No. The Executive and the Parliament should decide Scottish laws for the Scottish legal system.

That is precisely the point. I am inviting the First Minister to consider whether the Scottish legal system should, in light of the House of Lords ruling, introduce a range of tariff measures, which Mr Wallace declined to do. To do that would not mean that the law was not a Scottish law; we are inviting the Executive to introduce such a law in the Parliament.

While we are at it, may we ask the First Minister to consider other aspects of sentencing? Will he examine the situation that pertains in Scotland today where people do not serve the sentence that is handed down in court, but get time off automatically, many with 50 per cent remission? In that context, why are Labour and Liberal Democrat members of the Justice 2 Committee refusing to incorporate into the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill sensible Conservative proposals that would end that situation? Will the First Minister look at the matter again?

Mr McLetchie does himself a disservice by continually coming to the chamber and calling for changes in legislation, much of which originated when a Conservative Government was in power in Scotland. We heard him talking about hearings for 16 and 17-year-olds, a proposal that emanated from Michael Forsyth's time at the Scottish Office and that this week we have finally managed to put off until a time when it might be more appropriate for Scotland. We need to ensure that we have a criminal justice system that is appropriate for Scotland, but that is tough on the most serious offenders, particularly sex offenders, and ensures that people serve the sentences that they deserve.

Mr McLetchie commented on the work of the Parole Board for Scotland, but that body is independent from Scottish ministers—it is absolutely right that that should be the case, as in any modern democracy. Through the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill, we are toughening the regime for sex offenders and ensuring that there are new penalties, new sentences and new action to take crime off the streets of Scotland and to ensure that offenders are either locked up or improved so that, when they come back out to the community, they are no longer the danger that they once were. That is what a decent criminal justice system should do and that is what we are doing.

Is the First Minister at all surprised that the Opposition has yet to welcome the historic deal that we have on the table for the minimum rate for national health service pay? I am sure that he will agree that many Labour members have fought all their careers against low pay, which has been for too long a feature of our national health service.

In the longer term, will the First Minister consider the position of ancillary workers, porters, domestics and other workers who lost minimum terms and conditions under the Tories' policy of compulsory competitive tendering? Will he address the needs of those workers in relation to pensions and sick pay? I welcome today's announcement.

Speech.

Order. I heard a question in the middle of that. [Interruption.] I did. I call the First Minister.

I think that there are—[Interruption.]

Order. Let us get on.

Thank you, Presiding Officer.

There are thousands upon thousands of nurses, midwives and doctors across Scotland who will have noted today the announcement of the historic deal that has been reached not just to invest in the national health service, but to reform and modernise a pay structure that had existed since 1948. Today's announcement will result in a national minimum salary in the NHS in Scotland of £5.18 an hour, a starting salary for qualified nurses up 6 per cent to £17,000, a new maximum salary for nurses, which is also up 6 per cent—[Interruption.]

The Official Report may not show it, Presiding Officer, but the leader of the Scottish nationalist party looks as though he thinks that this is a joke and not a serious matter.

There will be an increase for—[Interruption.]

There is far too much noise coming from my right. SNP members must quieten down.

Was that a political point, Presiding Officer? [Interruption.]

Order. I choose the questions because of their priority. Question 5 was lodged by an SNP member and I am trying to reach it. I ask members to make less noise so that we can hear the First Minister's answer.

There will be a new maximum salary for front-line midwives of £27,500, which is an increase of just under 12 per cent. Those are real increases in the pay of nurses and health care professionals—they are not slogans. The increases will make a difference to recruitment, help to bring down waiting times and give our health service staff pay rates of which we can be proud and not ashamed. I am delighted to be part of a Government that is bringing in those increases.

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Universities (Top-up Fees)

To ask the First Minister whether he will confirm that there are no plans to introduce "top-up" tuition fees for universities. (S1F-2306)

There are no such plans in Scotland.

Does the First Minister agree that the abolition of fees and the establishment of a system of student support have been a great success and have substantially increased access to higher education in Scotland? Does he welcome the indications that the Scottish university community is opposed to top-up fees? Does he further agree that the introduction of such fees would erect massive and divisive financial barriers to access in direct contradiction to the policies that the partnership Executive introduced and the Parliament supported?

I suppose that I should have said in answer to Ian Jenkins's initial question that the partnership parties had no plans to introduce top-up fees. The Conservatives may have other ideas and the nationalists would have to find the money from somewhere.

The partnership's policies for higher education have changed the position on student tuition fees through the introduction of student bursaries. Our policies ensure that Scotland has world-class universities, as it does. Those universities have centres of excellence that attract a far higher amount of research money from the United Kingdom national pot than the average, per head of population, and far more royalties from research going into products outside the university system. The success of Scotland's universities lies not only in looking after our students properly, but in ensuring that we have among the best universities in the world. That is something that we should be proud of and something that we will be able to trumpet come the election next year.

Does the First Minister recognise that, notwithstanding the consensus against top-up fees in the chamber and the country, a decision in the rest of the UK to increase the proportion of university income that comes directly from students and fees will have the knock-on effect of reducing the amount of money that is available to Scotland's universities through the arcane functioning of the Barnett formula? Does he consider that that process is in any way democratic or fair?

Mr Wilson is well known—and often quoted—for campaigning around the country for the abolition of the Barnett formula. The Barnett formula secures Scotland's funding support and currently ensures that 50 per cent of Scotland's young people go into further and higher education—the figure in England is 35 per cent. That seems to be a good funding formula. It has delivered our policies in Scotland on the abolition of tuition fees and the introduction of student bursaries. The Scottish nationalist party could not afford those policies and presumably would not have been able to introduce them. Our policies put the Scottish universities not only at the centre of our education system, but at the centre of the UK education system. Scottish universities are doing better than any other universities anywhere else in the UK. Our system would not be possible if the Scottish nationalist party won the election next year. Scotland's universities are working hard in Scotland and in the United Kingdom. They are among the best in the world. We will preserve them. Others may have different ideas.

Will the First Minister go further than he did in his answer to Ian Jenkins and rule out top-up fees for the whole of the next parliamentary session?

He will rule you out.

All the best lines come from behind me. There are no plans to introduce top-up tuition fees in Scotland.

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Waiting Times (Tayside)

I ask this notwithstanding the fact that we have already had a question on the subject.

To ask the First Minister what action is being taken to improve NHS waiting times across Scotland and particularly in the Tayside NHS Board area. (S1F-2310)

I hope that the member for Dundee West heard my comments about the action that is being taken to improve waiting times across Scotland and about specific improvements in areas of high priority.

As for the Tayside area, Gerry Marr, the chief executive of Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust, has today pointed out that the number of patients waiting more than nine months for treatment has dropped by a quarter since last December. We hear a lot of complaints in the chamber about the health service. We are all impatient for improvements. However, even some members from Tayside have complained about the people who are working hard to deliver the service in Scotland. As a result, I want to put on record the fact that NHS Tayside and the doctors, nurses, administrators, ancillary staff, midwives and others who work in that area have turned around what was until only a short time ago a very bad situation. Although they have much further to go, they will have our support to get there.

I call Fergus Ewing to ask question 5.

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Executive—[Interruption.]

I am so sorry. Kate Maclean will ask a supplementary, and then I will come to Fergus Ewing. I was anxious to get Mr Ewing in before the clock ran out.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I realise that you are probably getting bored with this discussion.

No.

I am glad that the First Minister highlighted the fact that there are more positive aspects to the figures that were announced today. I ask him and every member in the chamber—including Mr Swinney—to join me in commending the hard work and effort of every member of staff in NHS Tayside who has played their part in bringing down waiting times.

Does the First Minister share my concern that the SNP always concentrates on the negative and that its constant denigration of hard-working and committed NHS staff in Scotland is unhelpful and unacceptable?

Obviously, I am happy to concur with those remarks. However, although good news about heart bypass operations and about the Beatson clinic in Glasgow, where the waiting time for cancer treatments has been cut by half in 12 months from eight weeks to four weeks, shows that solid improvements are being made, that is not enough. We want to ensure that the health service in all health board areas across Scotland delivers on time, within target and to the highest quality for all patients who require priority treatment. That is our objective in Tayside as it is everywhere else in Scotland. By securing a national waiting times centre, by supporting and improving the wages and conditions of nurses and other health service staff and by taking the other measures that I have outlined, we will deliver that improvement in the years to come.

I am sorry. We are well out of time. We must close and move to the next debate.