Plenary, 11 Jun 2009

Meeting date: Thursday, June 11, 2009

Official Report 824KB pdf

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Point of Order

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Before we move to decision time, I would welcome your advice on an exchange that took place earlier this morning. In his closing speech for the Scottish National Party, Michael Russell became rather upset with myself and other Labour members for claiming that the SNP had been guilty of helping to bring down the Callaghan Government in 1979.

Mr Russell said:

"What has been said is an outrage because it is wrapped in a lie. We have heard repeated again and again in the chamber the lie in which that outrage is wrapped."

To disprove what he claimed was a lie, Mr Russell quoted an extract from the memoirs of the then Prime Minister Jim Callaghan:

"Michael Cocks, the Chief Whip, had spoken with some of Labour's Devolution rebels. In his view the difficulty within the Party was much greater than any from the Scottish National Party and the Whips' judgement was that the Government could not rely on the votes of Labour Members from Merseyside or the North".

As if to prove the point, Mr Russell added, "Labour brought itself down."

Hurray!

Order.

I am delighted to hear members cheering. They will not be laughing in a minute.

Oh.

Order.

Presiding Officer, you have voiced concern about members using the words "lie", "lying" and "liar" in commenting on other members' speeches. If I thought that I was guilty of misleading the Parliament, I would of course retract any misleading statements. To be accurate, I have checked the House of Commons records. I can also rely on an article that was written by Roy Hattersley, the former deputy leader of the Labour Party—[Interruption.]

Order.

Roy Hattersley was in the Commons on that fateful night, unlike Mr Russell. He reported that every Labour member except one—the terminally ill Sir Alfred Broughton, who was not brought to the House of Commons—voted with the Government. I can rely further on an article from the Kingman Daily Miner, which reported that when the vote came, 279 Conservatives were joined by five Ulster Unionists, three Ulster Independents and 11 Scottish nationalists, one of whom was Mr Andrew Welsh, who is now a member of this Parliament.

Could you come to the point of order, please, Mr Whitton?

I am doing so.

Hurray!

History also records that 13 Liberals supported Thatcher's Tories that night—[Interruption.]

Order.

They included a former member of the Parliament—Sir David Steel. Is it not amazing how history is about to repeat itself?

Presiding Officer, I would welcome your guidance on whether it is in order for Mr Russell to claim that Labour members were guilty of telling lies and of attempting to mislead the Parliament when historical records show clearly that Labour did not bring down the Callaghan Government. We told the truth—we were brought down by the unpalatable actions of the Scottish National Party and the Liberals.

First, I point out that, strictly, members have three minutes in which to make a point of order. Mr Whitton's speech was 15 seconds longer than that—I recommend against that in future.

Nonetheless, I thank Mr Whitton for giving me notice of his point of order, which has allowed me carefully to consider the transcript of this morning's debate, when I was not in the chair. I simply remind all members of my previous ruling that the words "lies", "lying" and "liar" should not be used in the chamber in relation to other members—and preferably not at all. I am disappointed that the word "lie" has been used again today more than once. There is something of a growing tendency in that direction. I simply ask again that all members cease that practice forthwith.

All that I can say in reply to Mr Whitton's second point is that, as I have said many times before, it is not my role as Presiding Officer to establish the veracity or otherwise of statements made in the chamber by any member, be they a minister or otherwise.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Since I have been mentioned, I will say that I was the SNP's chief whip in 1979. It might help if I point out a factual matter.

Do you have a point of order, Mr Welsh?

I do indeed. [Interruption.]

Order.

Mr Russell has been accused of being inaccurate. I delivered the motion of no confidence to Michael Foot, who was the then Leader of the House. If Labour had delivered its policy, the vote on the motion of no confidence would not have taken place and Labour could have avoided the defeat. That is a matter of fact.

I accept the Presiding Officer's judgment on the point about parliamentary language, but the fact is the same—Labour could have avoided the vote and the defeat.

The member has made a point, but I am not clear about whether it was a point of order for me. His fact is now a matter of public record.